Where to put my second city...

[Ray Patterson]

I love the opening phase of the game... you know every discovery you make will have tremendous impact.

Well the game I just started is really weird, but then all civ IV games seem to be. There are so many different resources no map is 'normal'. Anyway, it's my second monarch game, huge fractal, I'm Ramesses. Cow, Wheat and Marble in my first city radius, not bad at all. Soon I discover a whole lot of resources to my north, but unfortunately also the end of the world.

To the south is some pretty sweet space too. And a neighbour.

If I want to have a considerable chunk of that I have to act fast. The pigs and the two gold mines are just too good to be left up for grabs I think. Then again, the city to the north can provide me with stone, the best early non-military resource, and horses. Then again the horses can wait (and no way is anyone ever going to beat me to that spot. But if I have stone very soon, I can create a LOT of wonders very soon. Stonehenge, Pyramids and Great wall are all very much on my wish list, and as industrious and with stone, I should be able to get at least two. Then again, I might say that with industrious and stone my wonder position will be so amazing (especially if I chop some of the richly present forests) that it can wait. While, as mentioned before, the space to the south can't. So, what comes first? Shall I try to become a wonder powerhouse and worry about the rest later? Or is a decent landgrab the highest priority? I guess there is no easy answer, but I'd like to hear someone's opinion.

 

[Jet]

I'd settle north to get war chariots first, then settle south. My habit is to be paranoid about barbs, and your neighbor can expand in other directions so it's only a 1 in X chance that he'll want to beat you to your pig/gold spot.

You could settle north of the furs and then (after pig/gold) settle on top of the stone. Cost you more in settlers but you'd get to skip the horse city Obelisk and the Quarry, and you'd get both Furs instead of having to cover one with a city. The Horse city could get right down to business with Work Boat / Barracks / War Chariot loop. The Stone city wouldn't be shabby.

Then grab Henge / Wall if they're not taken - if they are, no big loss - then go for the Pyramids.

You're pretty stylin' if you can get 2 Gold and 2 Furs worked, not to mention your Stone/Industrious. Edit: your Stone/Marble/Industrious!

 

[obsolete]

I didn't realize there were players who go after building wonders on Monarch level. Shouldn't you be more worried about armies first?

 

[Elrohir]

I didn't realize there were players who go after building wonders on Monarch level. Shouldn't you be more worried about armies first?

Generally, more than one early wonder is excessive, in my opinion. But even on the post-patch Monarch, it's possible to grab Stonehenge or the Oracle without falling too far behind - especially if you are Industrious, or have stone/marble.

I would be wary of trying to grab the stones, mids, and wall. (Unless by "grab" you mean steal from the AI ) I think it's more likely that you'll fall behind in the Middle Ages, and die in the Renaissance or quit earlier if you take that path, than if you just build one of those while expanding and conquering.

 

[swimrr]

Save the stone for your 4th city. Head S to grab the gold and get in position by your neighbor for the eventual beating you will have to hand him on monarch. Also hard to make city calls when you don't have BW or IW yet. Might want to wait for 1 of those, if not both. Iron or bronze could realll change the city plans.

As for wonders, the only ones worth it really are oracle for MC or CoL. Pyramids are great too but save going for those til you have a 4th city up near the stone. Should be possible being industrious and have the trees.

 

[Meatbuster]

I'd say block your enemy. In the second screenie there is someone on the left, so yes, you have to act fast. Leave the stone for later since the opponents will never get there (not even with Galleys!) if you leave borders closed. I would settle 1W of the pigs then 2N of the southern gold... chop some quick Obelisks there or even have a missionary if you have a religion. Finally I'd take the eastern cow site (possibly on the desert or 1N of the cow) to seal off the eastern shore, completing your blockade. Now you can settle your land at your leisure.

Getting the horse or stone + wonders early is great, but you might lose a lot of land. I'd get Archery or build the Great Wall (with Industrious it's not that hard even without stone!) if you don't have copper. You can then go Metal Casting for Forges to hopefully generate a Great Engineer fast enough to grab the 'mids. Even if your Great Engineer does not make it to building the 'mids, you can always spend the Engineer on other wonders (Hanging Gardens and Hagia Sophia comes to mind).

 

[Ray Patterson]

I didn't realize there were players who go after building wonders on Monarch level. Shouldn't you be more worried about armies first?

well, that depends... if you build the great wall you don't have to have a big army early on . I mean the neighbour you see is Ghandi, he's not going to attack me very soon simply because he's a bit more powerful. If Alex or Monty was nearby you might have a point, but in many cases the only early military threat is barbarians. And if I play a non-industrious civ and don't have stone I don't build any pre-industrial wonders at all on the higher levels. With one of stone/marble and industrious I'd definitely go for one wonder, I was planning on pyramids before I started the game. But seeing as I have those resources as well, I think one early wonder is too careful. I think I'll head for the pigs/gold first, and indeed might build the great wall without stone. I'll pass on stonehenge and hook up the stone to build the pyramids. Then when I get a great engineer, pretty soon, I'll probably build the great library. Why Hanging Gardens or Haghia Sofia? In order to keep getting great engineers?

 

[cabert]

you're not creative, so settling too near to a capital will do you no good.
+ settling too far isn't good either.
Your neighbour is of the peaceful kind, so you don't need the horses right now.

I'd settle to get the pigs and gold first, then on the eastern fur to be on the coast, have access to fur (duh!), fish, horses and stone. Not a real powerhouse, but the fish + lighthouse will feed your stone, fur and horse working citizens.

You may notice I like to settle on sites where I can benefit from health and happiness resources.

 

[Glouglou]

well, that depends... if you build the great wall you don't have to have a big army early on . I mean the neighbour you see is Ghandi, he's not going to attack me very soon simply because he's a bit more powerful. If Alex or Monty was nearby you might have a point, but in many cases the only early military threat is barbarians. And if I play a non-industrious civ and don't have stone I don't build any pre-industrial wonders at all on the higher levels. With one of stone/marble and industrious I'd definitely go for one wonder, I was planning on pyramids before I started the game. But seeing as I have those resources as well, I think one early wonder is too careful. I think I'll head for the pigs/gold first, and indeed might build the great wall without stone. I'll pass on stonehenge and hook up the stone to build the pyramids. Then when I get a great engineer, pretty soon, I'll probably build the great library. Why Hanging Gardens or Haghia Sofia? In order to keep getting great engineers?

That's why I focus on the great wall on Monarch, it has 2 advantages :
- It protects you from the barbs and allows you to avoid building an army early (if you don't have one of the war crazy as a neighboor!!).
- the barbs, that would usually attack you (as you're the weackest in the beginning on the game), will focus on your neighboors!!!! And that's a great way to slow them at no cost!

In this situation, being industrious and having stone and marble would make me go wonder crazy :
2nd city for the stone -> great wall and even pyramid in this second city
Oracle in your capitol (and if you're fast enough, one or two chop will probably give you stonehendge) ...
third city for the horses, fish and luxury ressources
and then go on Ghandi (with war chariot). He will probably found one of the early religion ...

Pigs and gold will come next ...
amazing start (for ramses) ... can you post the initial save??

 

[carl corey]

Wow, nice start! I'd say that since you have marble and you can easily get stone too it's about the only time when going wonder crazy is a must! Just try not to have only "wonder-building" cities. Have one or two popping out units.

As for the wonders themselves:
- Stonehenge gives you free Obelisks, your UB. This will help you get some culture in your new cities, and also assign priests if you want to maybe help out the Great Prophet generation for a future shrine.
- Great Wall is just great. As has been already said, not having to worry about barbs is excellent.
- the Pyramids are quite an investment. Are you going to need Hereditary Rule soon? Unlikely, since you'll have enough happiness resources available. Representation? Not sure about it either. It's all about having super-food-heavy cities and you don't have a lot of those.
- Oracle - pretty good if you can get it, and it's cheap too. You can use it to get Metal Casting and so unlock the cheap forges for an early production boost.
- neither Temple of Artemis nor the Parthenon seem very useful here. The Great Library comes later, you'll just have to see at that point if you can get it or not.

I'd group Oracle & Stonehenge in the stone city, since you won't be needing that many Great Prophets anyway, and put the Great Wall in the capital. Add an Engineer there and maybe the Hanging Gardens if you can and watch those Great Engineers come out.

City placement: you have quite a few choices. If you don't want to wait for a border pop to get the stone (you'd have to build an Obelisk for that) just put your second city 1E of the stone. The deer will help you work the stone and the two fur camps - or just build a farm if you need more food. You can even share the furs with another city build 1SE of the horses, since it will have fish to feed it. I wouldn't really care about the south just right now. If you have to take it by force the War Chariots will help. If not, try to settle the pig+2gold site. You won't have a lot of food in it either, so don't expect it to grow a lot. However the two gold mines are more than worth it.

 

[Glouglou]

I'd group Oracle & Stonehenge in the stone city, since you won't be needing that many Great Prophets anyway, and put the Great Wall in the capital. Add an Engineer there and maybe the Hanging Gardens if you can and watch those Great Engineers come out.

City placement: you have quite a few choices. If you don't want to wait for a border pop to get the stone (you'd have to build an Obelisk for that) just put your second city 1E of the stone. The deer will help you work the stone and the two fur camps - or just build a farm if you need more food. You can even share the furs with another city build 1SE of the horses, since it will have fish to feed it. I wouldn't really care about the south just right now. If you have to take it by force the War Chariots will help. If not, try to settle the pig+2gold site. You won't have a lot of food in it either, so don't expect it to grow a lot. However the two gold mines are more than worth it.

The capitol is really great with all those forests ... Greatwall and pyramid could be mostly chopped ... by waiting a few turn between the two building, forest would probably regrow !!! I was wrong in my previous post where to build the wonders ...

But that's definitevely an amazing start for Ramses!

EDIT : big quote removed!!

 

[cabert]

If you really want wonders here :
first settler goes SW of the stone while you tech to masonry.

Workers quarry the stone asap, then chop the plains forest (not enough food to be worked anyway) for stonehenge then GW.

Why there?
this city as very low maintenance, is connected to thebes via river and doesn't need cultural expansion to access the stone.

 

[Ramesses 3000]

I'd settle right on that right Fur space to get horse, stone, and fish all in one fat cross, then make a beeline for that space 2 to the left of the pigs, as the gold near the river is worth 1 extra and you get floods to further help. It also makes a great launching point for an assault on India.

 

[CookieCutter]

As for the wonders themselves:
- Stonehenge gives you free Obelisks, your UB. This will help you get some culture in your new cities, and also assign priests if you want to maybe help out the Great Prophet generation for a future shrine.

Stonehenge gives you plain Monuments AFAIK. To assign Priests you need to build these Obelisks manually.

 

[cabert]

Stonehenge gives you plain Monuments AFAIK. To assign Priests you need to build these Obelisks manually.

did you try this, or is it theory?

 

[carl corey]

I would be really amazed if it would give you monuments, seeing that you can't actually have monuments with Egypt!

Edit: Tested. It gives you obelisks.

 

[Glouglou]

I'd settle right on that right Fur space to get horse, stone, and fish all in one fat cross, then make a beeline for that space 2 to the left of the pigs, as the gold near the river is worth 1 extra and you get floods to further help. It also makes a great launching point for an assault on India.

This may not be fast enough to access the stone ...
You'll have to border pop which may take too much turns ...
I would settle W of the stone to be coastal ... but it you loose the deers that way ...

StoneHenge can be build for 2 forests chop with stone ....

 

[Glouglou]

If you really want wonders here :
first settler goes SW of the stone while you tech to masonry.

Workers quarry the stone asap, then chop the plains forest (not enough food to be worked anyway) for stonehenge then GW.

Why there?
this city as very low maintenance, is connected to thebes via river and doesn't need cultural expansion to access the stone.

He probably already has massonery has its workers seem to build the marble carreer ...

 

[cabert]

He probably already has massonery has its workers seem to build the marble carreer ...

really? then it's probably too late for stonehenge using another city and the stone...
GW may be lost too.

 

[Eggolas]

Interesting city site choices. Golden Pigs on the coast (1 tile W of the Piggies) is intriguing, but it is also food starved despite the presence of the pigs on what appears to be a hill. The two gold mines use up 4 extra food and the pigs on the hill won't produce all that is required. The sea gives two food each with lighthouse, but right now there is only one grassland tile, which can produce an additional food with irrigation after Civil Service. Therefore, it's an intriguing choice with real tradeoffs.

If the tile 2 East of the pigs is a floodplain, you might consider settling 1 tile NE of the pigs. The irrigated flood plain would give you the food you need, but windmills look most feasible for the non-gold hills.

It might be better to let Ghandi settle the pigs and gold with access to flood plains and then take the city with your horde of war chariots. That depends upon how good a warmonger you are.

I really like two or three cities up north capturing the two food resources, horses, fur and stone. But eventually you will have to fight your way south.