Which civ ability is best in 1.29f?

[Sirp]

Popular wisdom is that industrious and religious are the two best civilization traits (all this analysis is on Deity and/or Emperor level), and are so largely independent of gaming conditions. I am with Sullla, and others, that industrious is the best, and religious is second.

However, the new patch (1.29f), changes things somewhat. Commercial is improved substantially. The major reason it is still likely to be shunned is that people can't clearly and immediately see its advantages, but that doesn't mean they're not there. I tend to think that commercial now rivals religious.

Something a little less obvious, is the greater appeal of being Scientific. With the new reluctance of the AI to trade technologies, and the great slowing of technological progress, particularly on Deity, it is now feasible, just, for the player to make a profit out of researching technologies and then selling them around. Being Scientific really makes this a viable strategy, since you can build a strong infrastructure for research, very quickly.

I think things have gotten alot more interesting in terms of choice of civilization abilities. All 6 abilities now have an allure to them, in certain situations. I think that industrious is still slightly better than any other, expansionist is heavily dependent on playing conditions, and militaristic depends heavily on your style of play. The other three - religious, scientific and commercial, are now closely poised.

I think that 1.29f has opened up a whole heap of different strategies that are viable. You can try to research yourself, or you can buy all your techs.

So what do people think, has 1.29f changed the value of civ attributes?

 

[Venger]

I think religious still has an advantage, because of the overvalue of culture and undervalue of happiness in Civ3. A religious Civ gets reduced costs for buildings that improve happiness AND culture. Whereas commericial gets some trade bonuses that help build happiness (marketplace is reduced, is this correct?) as well as some trade arrows and production arrows that allow an entertainer or extra happy person.

Frankly, I think it's a little flawed - culture is overpowered and the religious trait gives them a doubled improvement. Which is why India always seems so powerful in the game, yet was ruled by a tiny island in the North Atlantic for decades...

Venger

 

[Sirp]

Venger: I'm afraid I don't see how culture is overpowered. Commercial does not get reduced price marketplaces, if it did then I can assure you every Deity player and his dog would be yelling out how great they are. In Deity, unless you want to go to war early, building lots of marketplaces and banks is absolutely essential; cheap marketplaces would probably be overpowered in most people's view.

Having a marketplace in an Emperor/Deity game is much more powerful than having a temple. Further, why is religious overpowered against scientific? Scientific civs get cheaper libraries/universities, a library produces more culture than a temple, and it gives a good boost to science production - this is much better than a temple's effect of making one extra citizen happy, in most cases.

 

[Kefka]

religious, why because of Three words
ONE TURN ANARCHY!
that means you can be Democracy untill war breaks out and then BOOM your Monarchy, after war, BOOM, your Democracy again.
and also Temples are usually a must in some Citys for me, most cases the temple's effect of one guy happy is better than the library. not that I don't build librarys.

 

[Venger]

Originally posted by Sirp
Venger: I'm afraid I don't see how culture is overpowered. Commercial does not get reduced price marketplaces,

Which is why I asked.

if it did then I can assure you every Deity player and his dog would be yelling out how great they are.

Why? It wouldn't be THAT huge a deal.

In Deity, unless you want to go to war early, building lots of marketplaces and banks is absolutely essential; cheap marketplaces would probably be overpowered in most people's view.

Cheap or reduced cost? A marketplace is 100 shields, reducing it 25% for commercial is hardly a game breaker - and frankly makes much more sense than increasing the max # of cities (playing with corruption numbers).

Having a marketplace in an Emperor/Deity game is much more powerful than having a temple.

Disagree. A temple combines culture with happiness. As your empire becomes large, the happy worker means either a higher rate of science, or an extra tile worked instead of entertaining.

Further, why is religious overpowered against scientific? Scientific civs get cheaper libraries/universities, a library produces more culture than a temple, and it gives a good boost to science production - this is much better than a temple's effect of making one extra citizen happy, in most cases.

An extra citizen is often an extra working citizen, increasing growth, production, and trade. On higher difficulties and larger empires, happiness is king - I mean really, how hard is it to climb the tech three in Civ3? Civ3 has as bad of a tech avalanche as Civ2 did. But happiness, there's the key. Nobody rush builds libraries in captured cities man...

Venger

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

Disagree. A temple combines culture with happiness. As your empire becomes large, the happy worker means either a higher rate of science, or an extra tile worked instead of entertaining.

Ahh, but you forget, marketplaces increase the amount of happiness generated from luxury resources. The more luxuries you have, the more happy faces are generated relative to a city without a market (with three luxuries, 4 happy faces are generated, with 6 luxuries, 12 happy faces, with 8 luxuries, 20 happy faces...). Also all the extra money gives you cash to buy techs off the AI and buy improvements/units. So build a market first and you quickly recoup the costs in happiness/cash benefits, and then use the extra cash to buy that temple you're looking at for the culture benefit expanding the city radius etc. The extra content face is almost an afterthought when compared to the strength of marketplaces.

Also remember that for the other civ traits the cost of the improvements they cheapen is reduced by half. Temples cost 30 shields for a religious civ vs 60 for a standard civ, and for scientific civs libraries cost 40 shields vs 80 for example. This would mean markets would cost 50 shields if commercial was consistent with the other traits, a very attractive figure.

 

[Sirp]

Venger: yes, happiness is king. A temple gives you one happiness, a marketplace will usually give you more, depending on how many luxuries you have access to. I usually focus on trade alot and get access to 4-5 luxuries on Deity fairly early; that means a marketplace will give 2-4 extra happy people; *much* more powerful than a temple, and more powerful than a cathedral in some cases. This, combined with the money making ability of marketplaces makes them the most important improvement on deity imho.

Also you are right about the reduced cost being say, 75%. If it was that then commercial would be solid, but not great. I was talking under the assumption that the discount would be 50%, in line with the discount given for scientific and religious civs.

Also, if I want culture in a captured city, I will rush the cheapest cultural building. Early on, I might go for a temple because I need the extra happiness, but later, I usually have sufficient luxuries to not worry too much about happiness after a city is captured (I always starve captured cities down to size 1 anyway).

I seriously think it's much easier and cheaper spending money to trade for luxuries than it is to spend time building temples. Build a marketplace or bank instead, and use the extra money you get from them to trade for more luxuries. For me, I generally build religious buildings last, unless I really can't secure enough luxuries, or I truly need the culture, and think that a religious building would be better than a scientific one.

Kefka: one turn anarchy is great, even if it only gets used once, as it often does for me. However, how great it is depends largely on how war mongering you are. Being religious is more important for war-like playing styles than for peaceful playing styles.

 

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Sirp


Kefka: one turn anarchy is great, even if it only gets used once, as it often does for me. However, how great it is depends largely on how war mongering you are. Being religious is more important for war-like playing styles than for peaceful playing styles.

OR how warmongering the other civs are!
personally I usually never start more than one war in my game (usually around the age of horsemen) but I get dragged in to four or five others in the course of the game. So for me Religious is a great attribute. I also love being expansionist so I usually play the Irouqois OR the Aztecs.
Aztecs may not have that attrubute but there faster warriors give me the exploring power I need in the begging without having to have the expansionist trait on there better than scouts as they can defend themselfs.

 

[Sirp]

Kefka: yes, but personally I rarely get dragged into wars. I usually stay republic all game long these days. Which I guess you could say means that the difference between religious and non-religious for me is essentially the difference between democracy and republic (plus the one anarchy period to get to republic).

 

[ozmodiar]

With the latest patch, commercial is pretty sweet. I was in the 1000's of gold while still in despotism, on monarch. I enjoy having a big wallet, and usually need a big army to hold on to it. The Indians are starting to become my fav civ

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

Yes, the Indians are now one of the good 'builder-type' civs.

 

[LKendter]

I still love religious - Don't forget another of fact or the temples - cheap source of culture border expansion.

No matter how you plan to win, some things are key
1 - Lock your borders
2 - At least 1 culture building (reducing flip chances)
3 - Overall culutre rating helps with dealing with other civs. I'll take cheap culture buildings any days of the week.

Relgious and goverments really helps -
Hmmm... Do I try to hold republic or revolt?
Monarcy is available, do I wait for Republic?
Do I bother with Democracy?
All these questions become meaningless under religous.

Expansionist depends on the terrain and map. It sucks if you are on a small island.

Commericial doesn't really kick in until size 7 cities.

 

[chiefpaco]

All traits are well balanced now. I think they merely depend on your play style, though on tiny archipelago maps, expansionist isn't great (though it should get you closer to Map Making, which is good). I haven't verified the Commercial bonus, but as it sounds, it at least improves that characteristic. IMHO, it should bring it close to even with the rest. I better go check my current game with Greece!

Commercial may be very powerful in the late game. However, it should be, because by that time, the civs with the early benefits have been enjoying bonuses for years and should get better starts. And I'd argue the civ with the better start should win most of the time.

Remember, luxuries can make people happpy. Temples can just make people content and cost 1 gold maintenance. One warrior as a military police can do the same contentment work as a temple, costs way less to build, may be free (depending on your allowed units), and defends your town. 1 gold off the luxury slider also makes a content citizen happy, no shields are used and the effect is instant. Culture is needed in every game, but there are other ways around happiness.

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

Originally posted by LKendter
Commericial doesn't really kick in until size 7 cities.

Actually, it also kicks in when you have lots of cities. The big improved feature of commercial is the reduced corruption, which takes effects when you have lots of cities (you can have 25% over the normal city corruption limit).

Edit: I said commercial increase optimal city count by 50%, silly me...

 

[LKendter]

@JuicyCivNewbie

I won't argue with the corruption effects - I just love getting all that bonus money in my base tile. That starts with size 7, and better at size 13.