Which civ rules the high seas?

[kochman]

Playing being equal (imagine you playing against yourself in all cases)...

Which water dominating culture (criteria = either UB or UU is salt water based) is the king of the high seas?
Carthaginians?
Dutch?
Portuguse?
Vikings?

 

[bestsss]

all those cant build the big lighthouse quickly

 

[kochman]

all those cant build the big lighthouse quickly

Sure they can... they all start with fishing, so sailing is close...
Then Portugal and Carthage also start with mining... leading to...

 

[pi-r8]

I'd go with the good ol inca. Industrious to build the lighthouse, financial to make coastal tiles a lot better, and the quechua to easily handle barbarians. I don't find the UB or UU for any of those civs particularly useful.

 

[naterator]

I'd say whoever gets the better starting spot will probably win.

But since that isn't a choice, i'm gonna vote vikings. Aggressive, amphibious UU with fast moving boats from UB is nice synergy, and FIN helps to sustain the empire. Hannibal would be my very close second.

 

[Badtz Maru]

Portugal, under the conditions that:

A: There is a good amount of land that cannot be reached by coastal tiles and

B: They beeline Optics for the Carrack.

Getting a large head start on colonizing territory that the AI cannot reach yet is great...but in Archipelago, it's not guaranteed to work that way (or to be enough land to make a difference). Now, on a Terra map, Portugal is always awesome.

I usually would play the Dutch, though. I like Dikes.

 

[kochman]

I'd go with the good ol inca. Industrious to build the lighthouse, financial to make coastal tiles a lot better, and the quechua to easily handle barbarians. I don't find the UB or UU for any of those civs particularly useful.

Yeah, I mean, there are a few civs that can have these considerations (industrious) and the Incas definitely rock in this regard... but its not who can get to the GLH first... its the all around aspect of using the sea to dominate the game that I am inquiring about.

Speaking of which, using a custom added Henry the Nav for Portugal (coded to be financial), and getting the GLH and the Colossus, I easily dominated as Portugal... 4 gold per coast tile w/ Feitorias!

 

[bestsss]

Yeah sure, fishing is exactly the what helps to build the big thing.
Also as we know archipelago starts usually w/ a lot of forests to chop.

 

[MaximumPain]

Meh wonders are over rated.

Ragnar has Financial to go with good water commerce. Vikings have a building that gives all ships +1 speed that has to be the best water advantage there is add to that the amphibious macemen known as berzerkers (who promote up to some nice marine riflemen).
I think the edge is clear for Ragnar. I will say that I like Han as well but his specials just dont support the naval wars as much. I never saw the real worth in the carrack so I can carry 2 spies instead of one hows that going to help me?

 

[Ghpstage]

I never saw the real worth in the carrack so I can carry 2 spies instead of one hows that going to help me?

Unlike Caravels the Carrack isn't limited to spies/missionaries/GP, it can carry any other unit like Settlers, Workers, troops etc so it can grab empty lands earlier. Paying for that expansion without trade routes is often quite difficult however so I would place the Settlers and only settle when Astros coming up.

My vote is for the Aztecs! Massive whipping aids the low output most of the way through the game and Spiritual allows you to jump from Slavery to Caste often to make the maximum use of seafood tiles. As a little side boost AGG lets you get the Amphibious promo with just 5XP .

 

[MaximumPain]

Nice I always misread that and thought that the unit was worthless. Now I need to go try Jao

 

[Windsor]

Roosevelt(if his UU makes him an option) is a good candidate, from the poll i voted Carthage. The cothon is a good and early UB. At the same time fin/cha is very strong trait combo.

 

[bestsss]

Meh wonders are over rated.

Ragnar has Financial to go with good water commerce. Vikings have a building that gives all ships +1 speed that has to be the best water advantage there is add to that the amphibious macemen known as berzerkers (who promote up to some nice marine riflemen).
I think the edge is clear for Ragnar. I will say that I like Han as well but his specials just dont support the naval wars as much. I never saw the real worth in the carrack so I can carry 2 spies instead of one hows that going to help me?

So wonder are, so are not. And some bloody ownz on a map like archipelago, If the great lighthouse is overrated, then no wonder deserve mentioning.

Carracks can can other stuff than spies

 

[naterator]

Meh wonders are over rated.

I agree in principle and probably wouldn't go that route either; but unfortunately concerted abuse of the great lighthouse probably IS the way to victory in this case, unless you can take it from whoever builds it before they REX to the point where it's too late to stop them. A human player playing REX + defend would be pretty tough to dislodge by the time you get berzerkers, especially if they can out tech and out produce you. A possible (though totally unfair) way around it is if the other players all collaborated to close borders with the jerk who built it, robbing them of the lucrative international trade routes.

Of the civs in question, the one i think would fare best if they got the great lighthouse would be carthage, since great lighthouse/cothon is a mean combo if you have enough trading partners. Although the dutch really start to shine around the time TGL fades, so if you could rocket to the industrial age and snatch sid's sushi and get levees up before anyone has the tech to mess with you you could win at your leisure.

 

[MaximumPain]

When I said that I was not trying to disparage the wonders themselves. What I meant was that any civ can get the GLH with some forethought and work so that the ind trait is not required to get the GLH. Its good if you plan to wonder whore but I have found that that is a lot of hammers that could be used to conquer neighbors or build up city infrastructure. Ind is a good trait as I like early forges but I dont see it being that great for the naval game.

Really the difference is small between the various civs with each of them having good advantages if they are properly leveraged.

 

[6K Man]

I like the Dutch. UU allows some interesting gambits and crushes AI Galleons/Caravels; UB allows for a lot of extra hammers on Coast/River tiles - tiles that are much more workable with the Financial trait.

 

[pi-r8]

Portugal, under the conditions that:

A: There is a good amount of land that cannot be reached by coastal tiles and

B: They beeline Optics for the Carrack.

Getting a large head start on colonizing territory that the AI cannot reach yet is great...but in Archipelago, it's not guaranteed to work that way (or to be enough land to make a difference). Now, on a Terra map, Portugal is always awesome.

I usually would play the Dutch, though. I like Dikes.

man I HATE trying to do that as Portugal. It's like... congratulations, you've managed to get a small head start on colonizing the new world. You had to beeline optics, and spend a lot of hammers on carracks, settlers, workers, and military to protect them from barbs, but nevermind. Your reward is... a few cities REALLY far away that cost a fortune in maintenance and provide no trade income. I'd rather just wait for astronomy.

 

[pi-r8]

Yeah, I mean, there are a few civs that can have these considerations (industrious) and the Incas definitely rock in this regard... but its not who can get to the GLH first... its the all around aspect of using the sea to dominate the game that I am inquiring about.

Speaking of which, using a custom added Henry the Nav for Portugal (coded to be financial), and getting the GLH and the Colossus, I easily dominated as Portugal... 4 gold per coast tile w/ Feitorias!

bear in mind that 4 gold per coast is ALMOST as good as a town would be at that point... but worse. so you're still better off working land tiles. I don't know how you can "use the sea to dominate". All cities are on land, so that's what matters.

If it's a multiplayer game you can play as the vikings, beeline astronomy, and hit them with berzerkers when they're not prepared yet. That's a fun gambit, but I don't think it would work well against the AI (it builds too many longbows).

 

[MyOtherName]

great lighthouse probably IS the way to victory in this case, unless you can take it from whoever builds it before they REX to the point where it's too late to stop them. ... A possible (though totally unfair) way around it is if the other players all collaborated to close borders with the jerk who built it, robbing them of the lucrative international trade routes.

Why would you call it unfair?

 

[naterator]

Why would you call it unfair?

I guess because having the world gang up on you is an effective counter to any advantage, so it kind of feels like a lazy solution; but i suppose all's fair to prevent a civ from running amok, especially in the land-grab phase.