Which is more difficult on immortal+, CP only (without CBP) or CBP?

[civfnaticfan]

Hi everyone, i am an avid fan of civ, and been playing deity games since it came out, looked through almost all the let's play and such. Switching to CP(core only) few months ago and finally to CBP recently. I am motivated by strong AI in a strategy game , but after trying out CP core , i find that the AI is clever but easily beatable if you tech wisely using any civs . I have three questions in my mind and hope everyone can voice their opinions.

A) Is CBP harder than CP , i am raising this question because since both are using similar modified AI while in CBP, AI only have 1 starting city, does that means enabling CP core only (AI have 3 cities at the start) is going to be harder than CBP ? I know the tech tree is different and various new mechanics, but 3 cities vs 1 city ...
Arithmetics is hard to beat!

B) Is it possible to increase the AI difficulty in the new patch of VP? Includes an even higher level of difficulty to improve it's replayability which could be named after it's creator?

C) Is it possible to give CBP's AI three starting cities , same as the CP core. As it only start with one city, even with strong AI, it still takes time to build up and hence easily destroyed by humans who micro managed. Their scores are low and always run into negative GPT. Let us test how this will transpire !

 

[Strigvir]

B) Is it possible to increase the AI difficulty in the new patch of VP? Includes an even higher level of difficulty to improve it's replayability which could be named after it's creator?

Why are you asking for additional difficulties when you didn't even play the mod?

 

[civfnaticfan]

Hi Strig, nice to see u again, of course i've played VP , a few other observations i noticed about VP is that most of the improvements are not done and the AI upgrade their units fairly slowly due to the fact that they only start with 1 city, with higher science requirement per tech in VP, AI seems to fall behind .

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I'm not sure I understand correctly - are you consistently beating AI on Deity on CBP/VP and thus need an ever higher difficulty?

 

[infidel88]

Is it possible to give CBP's AI three starting cities , same as the CP core.

It's not increasing AI skills, it just widens the starting gap. That's like the worst possible handicap there can be. Example - Civ6. If you can constantly beat deity AI on random map, non-communitas with random civ - chapeau bas, but I can assure you - you're in heavy minority and creating additional difficulty level for number of people you can count on fingers of veteran lumberjack seems silly.

 

[civfnaticfan]

@infidel88 The AI actually did very well with their larger amt of troops in CP since they can field larger armies and with the AI in CP, they can execute amazing flanks and strats. They are gimped in VP/CBP/CBO since they only start with 1 city. Is there a way to increase the number of starting cities for the AI in VP/CBP/CBO? The tech tree and happiness mechanics are more fun in VP =D

 

[ashendashin]

You could just give them free stuff with really advanced setup and IGE.
Dunno how you can enjoy having such an annoying handicap. I'd sooner avoid exploiting them than increasing the artificial gap further.

 

[IcyAngel]

The vanilla AI starts with insane bonuses which you have to overcome. Once you do, it's smooth sailing.
The CBP AI has steady bonuses which make the game challenging at every stage.

But really, why don't you actually launch a deity CBP/VP game and try it first? You might be surprised at the difficulty.

 

[Gazebo]

The vanilla AI starts with insane bonuses which you have to overcome. Once you do, it's smooth sailing.
The CBP AI has steady bonuses which make the game challenging at every stages.

But really, why don't you actually launch a deity CBP/VP game and try it first? You might be surprised at the difficulty.

Not to mention that more balance between units/buildings/wonders/policies/beliefs means that even 'bad' AI choices aren't as punishing in CBO v. CP.

G

 

[civfnaticfan]

Thanks for the comments, do keep it coming as there are very few threads that actually talk about AI improvements since most are only about balance. I tried a few VP/CBP games at deity , i find it easier than CP core . CP patch core without CBP is really challenging as i play it most of the time in this mode. But for VP/CBP games, even before 400 BC, i already have composite bows and catapults when deity AI is still fielding archers and spears... ( i can provide the game save file or screenshoots ).
Most of the improvements in their cities are only halfway done or very slow. The scores of AI are also very low , most of them 150 to 250 points at the era.... They cant flank because they dont have enough units... This makes the deity level games with VP/CBP dull in comparison with just CP alone, even though they don't make bad ai choices and good balance for what Lord Gazebo mention.
I sincerely urge ppl to try the CP core without VP/CBP for those who haven't tried it.

 

[ashendashin]

most of them 150 to 250 points at the era.... They cant flank because they dont have enough units

Those are real issues that have been around for recent versions. In particular, GPT has been a big problem, as of late. Almost every game has the same exact civs at the top. This happens because they work specifically to take full advantage of core mechanics.

Shoshone eats up land, screwing over everyone near them.
England will cripple someone near them, unless dealt with accordingly.
Mayans get so far ahead that they take many of the city states and wonders mid-game.
Austria will marry some city states, further crippling other civs.
Incas have the ultimate defense and strong yields, leading to conquering many nearby and remaining near the top.
The Huns and Genghis...do what they do.
Sweden will be sure to destabilize an area and for the most part, be a complete failure. They generally have good cities for the player to take, though.
Spain will torture, rape, and burn your following. You will find no mercy in their missions.
Ethiopia will be the first to get a religion. They will hate you for building wonders, while they own half of them. They will denounce you. Their friends will denounce you. The world will denounce you. Ethiopian culture is unmatched, and the world will fall under their advanced and peaceful way of life.

I removed a bunch of these with Really Advanced Startup for my last game and it made for a much more interesting world. Too bad I can't load it...

 

[Strigvir]

Thanks for the comments, do keep it coming as there are very few threads that actually talk about AI improvements since most are only about balance. I tried a few VP/CBP games at deity , i find it easier than CP core . CP patch core without CBP is really challenging as i play it most of the time in this mode. But for VP/CBP games, even before 400 BC, i already have composite bows and catapults when deity AI is still fielding archers and spears... ( i can provide the game save file or screenshoots ).
Most of the improvements in their cities are only halfway done or very slow. The scores of AI are also very low , most of them 150 to 250 points at the era.... They cant flank because they dont have enough units... This makes the deity level games with VP/CBP dull in comparison with just CP alone, even though they don't make bad ai choices and good balance for what Lord Gazebo mention.
I sincerely urge ppl to try the CP core without VP/CBP for those who haven't tried it.

You didn't mention the civ were you playing, which civs were under-performing, the size and the type of a map. Also, classical era? You are aware there is only a handful of civs with UUs before medieval era?

 

[civfnaticfan]

I always used random civ as my civ, I have recent games with Japan, ottomans, Rome and Dutch, epic length, pangea or continents. Most of the time, most ais get average scores with the exception of one runaway. The runaway usually incas or shoshone, I always start with ancient era. The thing is because AI start with one city, their science is slow, resulting in a series of cascading problems. Their land are unimproved until much late on because they need to tech to either bronze or iron working, etc before chopping forest and Jungles where some luxury are. I am thinking if there is a way to add the starting number of cities to the AI, so that there is a challenge to the veterans players.
Another thing I noticed is that because with only 1 starting AI City, most Ais generally get close scores in the starting few eras, very little distinction between the AI power whereas for CP only, the AI shows a huge range of prowess.
And possibly because of less units for VP, once they commit to an attack, they won't have enough troops to defend, which makes the human able to manipulate this situation.

 

[vyyt]

Wow! I find emperor a challenge and you find Deity too easy! I almost suspect that something is installed wrongly on your end. Anyway, I think you can activate the Really Advanced Setup and instead of giving AI cities, give them an extra starting settler - I think it would do almost what you are asking for.

 

[bigcat88]

Can u explain how on deity u rush from start? If u not authority celts,aztec,persia,etc...
Cause maybe we play different games, in my current immortal game on 100 BC France AI has longswordsmen, don't know what other AI has.
They kills barbarians much faster at start, get more ancient ruins, cause they have 2/3 or 4 warriors + scout.

 

[ashendashin]

AI start with one city, their science is slow, resulting in a series of cascading problems

See, this is what doesn't make much sense. There's a number of things that can prevent the AI from advancing and upgrading their troops in the beginning. In my experience, that's their poor GPT management and external influence(which is why I disable some civs I named above). On Immortal, I've never been able to get ahead of the top civs in science until past classical era(excluding extremely lucky starts), when great scientists allow me to take advantage of better priorities. Even with two free techs from ruins, there simply isn't enough science to go around. Do you build 10 cities with libraries and scientists in all of them? Is science your only focus? What sort of obsessive micro management can possibly allow you to get scientifically ahead of the AI so early, especially with those civs?

EDIT:
And I rarely seen their land unimproved. That's one thing that they actually do very well.

 

[IcyAngel]

See, this is what doesn't make much sense. There's a number of things that can prevent the AI from advancing and upgrading their troops in the beginning. In my experience, that's their poor GPT management and external influence(which is why I disable some civs I named above). On Immortal, I've never been able to get ahead of the top civs in science until past classical era(excluding extremely lucky starts), when great scientists allow me to take advantage of better priorities. Even with two free techs from ruins, there simply isn't enough science to go around. Do you build 10 cities with libraries and scientists in all of them? Is science your only focus? What sort of obsessive micro management can possibly allow you to get scientifically ahead of the AI so early, especially with those civs?

EDIT:
And I rarely seen their land unimproved. That's one thing that they actually do very well.

Exactly!

I can have sympathy for exceptionally skilled players who find Deity VP too easy, but the problems civfnaticfan mentions are the antithesis of the problems I encounter in my games (on Deity too).

Too little early game science? It's impossible to keep up unless you stumble on multiple free techs ruins. There's mathematically next to nothing you can do to bridge that gap.
Slow rate of tile improvement? The AI starts with a worker, so this one can only be placed on the AI not starting with 6 techs. Their workers are mostly idle from having nothing to improve.
Not enough troops? The AI has oftentimes ten times more troops than I do! They compensate military prowess for raw numbers. AI units clog every tile at most stages of the game.

Score doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't determine whether one is losing or not. (A tall player will almost certainly have a very low score, for example, although he/she might be outstandingly winning.)

 

[civfnaticfan]

It must be from playing months and months of CP core only that i am so used to playing against 3 cities AI start (deity) from the get-go ,that i find VP a lot less challenging. I love to micro-manage and make every turn counts. For my gameplay, every start is different, the terrain at the start will determine the different starting techs , i make sure my armies are diversified and also their promotion levels. In war, unit shuffling and citadel positioning are also important at deity levels. Sometimes you can bait/trick the AI to attack you by hiding your troops. For VP, i actually prebuild my units(left 1 turn) so they dont incur maintainance fees because most units you cannot purchase right off the bat without a barrack ,just in case of enemies sneak attack , helps with baiting too. The reason why u want to bait them to attack u early is to get your promotions up , raise a veteran army as early as possible.For VP deity , most of the time, one AI will attack u from afar, like halfway across the map, around late ancient era. It's not difficult to understand why the AI is programmed like this, they weaken u , just so in case you dont conquer neighbouring AIs easily. AI is further gimped with the new unit supply system for VP, which only allows for 5 to 6 units , hard cap with 1 city. Veterans Human player can easily handle an invading troops of 5 units as compared to CP core with 10 units supply for the initial city.
My last game with deity VP/CBP have me conquering 3 civs before 500BC, which i will never have done that with CP core only games...
The AI tech slow because of the way CBP/VP changes how science is determined, no longer derived from population other than your capital and some from happiness . In addition their luxuries and some strategic resources are not improved fast(relative to CP only) because they would need to research the required tech like iron and bronze working before they can improve most of the luxuries. (They only have so much science provided by their pop in capital and a bit from happiness.) As for the number of troops, they will only look larger in comparison to yours if you do not take any action in invading your neighbours or build your own armies, in any case , with good units placements and relevant promotions , its nothing to scare of.
I really like how the AI in CP only core actually have distinct scores and a few nations rise up , makes the world exciting as compared to VP where majority of the AI have about the same scores and none is distinctive until much later eras.
Hence i strongly urged people to try to install the Community Patch only , and enjoy a good experience with the AI so you can compare the differences.
So if i use "Really Advanced Setup" and give the AI 2 settlers, will this mod be compatible with VP? I really wanna try if this can give the AI some new competitive edge in VP.

 

[Gamewizard]

compared to VP where almost ALL the AI have about the same scores and none is distinctive until much later eras.

Your install must be bugged, because I see early runaways all the time.

 

[vyyt]

Yes, RAS is compatible with VP - see the compatibility thread.