[BTS] Which tech would you get from Liberalism?

[ueih]

Hi folks,

I'm curious which tech you would prioritise to get from Liberalism - well that is, if you planning to tech to this point. I used to always pick Democracy cos I regularly cottaged the whole map - at Emperor - hence the preference for Emancipation + Universal Suffrage . But after a few recent games, I really don't see it paying off due to the fact I'd kill off everybody with Knights/Cuirs.

Recently I went for Biology more often, coupling with tech Bulbs, I'd get tons of food really fast. But that me personally, what would you pick?

 

[unas876]

On Deity its standard play to tech Nationalism while bulbing your way to Lib and then picking Military Tradition. It's a very common strat on maps where your starting position is good enough that you can avoid an earlier war. Mounted attacks are popular because of how quick they are and Cuirs are, after Horse Archers, the second 2 movement unit that you can use by themselves in a war. Chariots and Knights don't work well on Deity by themselves because Chariots have a too low base strength and Knights get shredded by castles.

A similar play would be to Lib Steel instead of MT for a slower, yet more reliable attack with cannons and medieval troops (mostly macemen).

Another idea would be to Lib Astronomy, which can be good on watery maps, although if your priority in the game is to get to Astro as fast as possible, you probably don't wanna go to Lib for that. Would be better to just bulb it.

For lower levels and HoF starts its popular to Lib Communism, which is a great civic after you've captured a lot of land.

 

[ueih]

Thanks for the post. I never really put much thought in Military Tradition. In some games I even skip it in favor of Draft + Rifleman. However I must admit, after reading your post and some other threads, Lib-ing to MT sounds really strong. I will give it a go in my next game.

In the case of Communism, would it be better to Lib- Biology and hard research Communism? I'd take it at this point you want both and Biology is about 1.5 cost of Communism.

Steel is definitely appealing, nothing is more satisfying than blasting bowmen with canons

 

[elitetroops]

In the case of Communism, would it be better to Li- Biology and hard research Communism? I'd take it at this point you want both and Biology is about 1.5 cost of Communism.

Communism gives a much bigger immediate benefit. A typical situation where you really want to lib Communism is when you've been expanding very aggressively in the early game and have at least 20-30 cities by the time you approach Lib. City maintenance will be very crippling at this point, State Property erases distance maintenance immediately for a massive boost to your economy. In addition, with +1 your workshops now become as strong as a iron mines (with Guilds, Chemistry and Caste), for an even bigger boost to your economy. When you head for Assembly Line next, your workshops with Factory and Coal Plant will be stronger than towns with library and university, and more versatile since their output can be directly directed to hammers, beakers or gold. And workshops have this output immediately, don't need 70 turns to grow, like towns.

However, State Property only really shines when you have a large empire. If your empire isn't large enough, then you should aim to lib something that helps you grow it = military tech. MT or Steel are the most common.

 

[ArchGhost]

Each game is different,. with different tech paces, leader rolls, postioning, diplo situation, etc. so most of the time there are only preferences for Lib but I would take something else if I had to (Lib race is closer) or later (blowing the AIs away in tech or tons of saved up GS for bulbs).

Generally the priority (descending order) for me is:
Military Tradition - fastest way to get Cuirs is to skip this tech with lib and use scientists to speed up acquisition of Edu + philo. Nationalism and Gunpowder can be self-teched easy enough if the AI won't trade.

Steel - an alternative for when Ais may be too prepared for Cuirs by the time you can mount an attack, and my preference for intercontinental warfare in any case since cannon viability lasts so long. Being ready for a Chemistry bulb helps a lot with making this choice over MT too.

Nationalism - for those faster tech race games where waiting too long would let a tech speedster like Mansa or Willem snag Lib, it's still good value as trade bait despite being less advanced, and you can use it to transition to drafting later or take a shot at the Taj

Communism - don't do this very often as it requires extra scientists to help bulb through SciMeth quickly, but it's very strong to pick up State Property as early as possible as I almost always play expand heavy, and it gives one a better shot at keeping Kremlin out of somebody like HC's hands who is just gonna sit on it and do nothing but deny it to you

Scientific Method - When short on scientists and trying to get to Communism quicker. Otherwise a bad choice, I find, as trading it leads the AIs to drive towards Communism or Physics themselves because of the GP rewards...airships are quite annoying.

Biology - strictly speaking its stronger than communism if you aren't very big, it's better trade bait, and it really powers up your whipping when all those CS irrigated tiles suddenly turn in 4-yields everywhere. Still requires more scientists, like Communism

Astrology - I have taken this before simply because I could not get it quickly through bulbing quicker on intercontinental maps (poor GP pool luck). The value depends heavily on it being the map type where Astro is strong though.

Constitution/Corporation - probably the worst choice as the AIs will tech these handily, but it does offer a step up on the path towards Assembly Line and the AIs tend to be quite stingy with trading Corp (since it unlocks "wonders" i.e. the Corp HQs)

Replaceable parts - I did this once going for draft rifles. Rifling itself would have been a better choice; it's not hard to trade for RP.

Don't think I've ever Libbed Democracy. There's nothing pressing about the tech itself that the advantages Communism (state property) or trading for Constitution (Representation) don't make up for IMO.

 

[ueih]

... your workshops with Factory and Coal Plant will be stronger than towns with library and university, and more versatile since their output can be directly directed to hammers, beakers or gold. And workshops have this output immediately, don't need 70 turns to grow, like towns.

Agreed. In my last game, I tried and went most exclusively to hammers. No more boring waits for Cottages to grow. I didn't run SP tho..., I was spreading Mining like mad. In hindsight, I'm not sure if it's wise 'cos I had like 30+ cities and maintenance cost was not kind.

That brings me to an unrelated question. If you plan to do spread Corps, would you consider SP?

 

[ueih]

Each game is different,. with different tech paces, leader rolls, postioning, diplo situation, etc. so most of the time there are only preferences for Lib but I would take something else if I had to (Lib race is closer) or later (blowing the AIs away in tech or tons of saved up GS for bulbs).

Generally the priority (descending order) for me is:
Military Tradition - fastest way to get Cuirs is to skip this tech with lib and use scientists to speed up acquisition of Edu + philo. Nationalism and Gunpowder can be self-teched easy enough if the AI won't trade.

Steel - an alternative for when Ais may be too prepared for Cuirs by the time you can mount an attack, and my preference for intercontinental warfare in any case since cannon viability lasts so long. Being ready for a Chemistry bulb helps a lot with making this choice over MT too.

Nationalism - for those faster tech race games where waiting too long would let a tech speedster like Mansa or Willem snag Lib, it's still good value as trade bait despite being less advanced, and you can use it to transition to drafting later or take a shot at the Taj

Communism - don't do this very often as it requires extra scientists to help bulb through SciMeth quickly, but it's very strong to pick up State Property as early as possible as I almost always play expand heavy, and it gives one a better shot at keeping Kremlin out of somebody like HC's hands who is just gonna sit on it and do nothing but deny it to you

Scientific Method - When short on scientists and trying to get to Communism quicker. Otherwise a bad choice, I find, as trading it leads the AIs to drive towards Communism or Physics themselves because of the GP rewards...airships are quite annoying.

Biology - strictly speaking its stronger than communism if you aren't very big, it's better trade bait, and it really powers up your whipping when all those CS irrigated tiles suddenly turn in 4-yields everywhere. Still requires more scientists, like Communism

Astrology - I have taken this before simply because I could not get it quickly through bulbing quicker on intercontinental maps (poor GP pool luck). The value depends heavily on it being the map type where Astro is strong though.

Constitution/Corporation - probably the worst choice as the AIs will tech these handily, but it does offer a step up on the path towards Assembly Line and the AIs tend to be quite stingy with trading Corp (since it unlocks "wonders" i.e. the Corp HQs)

Replaceable parts - I did this once going for draft rifles. Rifling itself would have been a better choice; it's not hard to trade for RP.

Don't think I've ever Libbed Democracy. There's nothing pressing about the tech itself that the advantages Communism (state property) or trading for Constitution (Representation) don't make up for IMO.

Nice list! This will help me prioritize in my next few games.

One question on Astrology, even in the case of poor luck with GP, would it cost less Beaker to just research Astro? Obtaining it via Lib would mean you need to do all Philosophy, Edu and Lib, which combined cost is more than Astro.

 

[elitetroops]

SP can be used in corps games as a transition to help you reach Railroad faster. You want Kremlin to whip the Executives once you get there, Communism is not really a distraction. Once you reach corps you must obviously switch out of SP. Free Market to reduce corp maintenance cost is almost always best. Corp maintenance is part of city maintenance and is cut in half by courthouses.

Your corporate headquarters get gold income for every city that has the corp. You should consider building Wall Street (and all other gold multipliers) in that city. If you happen to have a strong religious shrine, consider making that city your corporate headquarters so that you also get that benefit from your gold multipliers. Corp headquarters or strong religious shrines are pretty much the only cities where you ever should build Wall Street.

Astrology and Astronomy are two completely different things.. If you want fast Astro, then it should be bulbed, not libbed. You need to study bulb paths a bit and avoid some techs to be able to bulb it early.

In general Astro is one of the most efficient techs to bulb (or lib) since it has no direct prereqs in the tech tree. For every tech you have which has an arrow in the tech tree to the tech you research, you get 20% bonus to beakers invested between turns. Astro has no arrows coming in, so you always pay full price. Scientific Method, for example, has two arrows coming into it. If you have both Astro and Chemistry, then SM is about 15% cheaper to tech than Astro ever will be, even though tech cost is higher. If you tech SM with only one of Astro or Chemistry, then SM costs about exactly as much as Astro. So if you have the choice between libbing Astro or SM and teching the other, you should likely lib Astro.

 

[Robo-Star]

Depends on the map. Many foreign continents? Easily subdued home continent? When in doubt, Sailing is always handy.

 

[ueih]

Astrology and Astronomy are two completely different things..

I don't think I can blame auto correct on that one. Definitely was thinking of one and ended up typing up the other.

Re-corps, so you would Railroad before Assembly Line? In my previous game, with Factory + Coal Plant I managed to one-turn build Exe most of the time without whip.

 

[ueih]

Depends on the map. Many foreign continents? Easily subdued home continent? When in doubt, Sailing is always handy.

Lib- Sailing would be too OP.

 

[Lennier]

I think there was a settler level challenge to Lib agriculture.

 

[2popbulb]

If you manage to bulb/research Philosophy before AI does you can delay Lib for a very long time especially since AI Civs are big fans of Pink Floyd.

 

[elitetroops]

Re-corps, so you would Railroad before Assembly Line? In my previous game, with Factory + Coal Plant I managed to one-turn build Exe most of the time without whip.

Assembly Line before Railroad for sure.

To be honest, I don't remember when I last used corps on normal speed. SP and workshops is enough to 1-turn most of modern and future era techs, so corps seem like an unnecessary hassle. Depends very much also on map type, of course. Anyway, when I think of corps, I automatically think of slower game speeds. On marathon you won't be able to one-turn execs and Kremlin whips become more valuable.

 

[ueih]

I think there was a settler level challenge to Lib agriculture.

Imagine doing that in deity and still win the game

 

[ArchGhost]

I don't think I can blame auto correct on that one. Definitely was thinking of one and ended up typing up the other.

Eh, that's my bad I did it first in my post. I do that all the time with Theology/Theocracy and Nationalism/Nationhood too, often interchanging them.

Nice list! This will help me prioritize in my next few games.

One question on Astrology, even in the case of poor luck with GP, would it cost less Beaker to just research Astro? Obtaining it via Lib would mean you need to do all Philosophy, Edu and Lib, which combined cost is more than Astro.

Astronomy is always fairly expensive to tech (it gets no bonus and is roughly a 2 GS bulb + change) which is why I would ever consider using Lib on it at all, along with no better alternative option -- if I couldn't swing the GP to cheapen it. If I get into a situation where I would have to tech it I'll either wait longer for at least one GS or just let the AI tech it and trade it out of them.

The point of Astro on a Astro-strong map is to get it quickly to reap the rewards -- namely better trade routes, more resources opened up, and maybe some 1 city island settling or intercontinental attacking. Similar to fast Optics where the point is to quickly meet the other AIs because the earlier you do it the more helpful it is. If you can't do that quickly, focus on something else. In such a case giving up Lib for a faster Astro can be better anyway since you don't need to go through all the Civil Service/Paper/Education line ASAP and if you're not going for Cuirs or Steel attack Lib is not so important for cutting turns.

 

[ueih]

Assembly Line before Railroad for sure.

To be honest, I don't remember when I last used corps on normal speed. SP and workshops is enough to 1-turn most of modern and future era techs, so corps seem like an unnecessary hassle. Depends very much also on map type, of course. Anyway, when I think of corps, I automatically think of slower game speeds. On marathon you won't be able to one-turn execs and Kremlin whips become more valuable.

Recently, I finished an Emperor standard large game with SP, no Corps. And boy, that worked out well! Managed a Domination win around 1400AD, 200 years ahead of my best record. Definitely, not going back to the Cottage way.

I'm done with Emperor, time for Immortal. Not sure how I'd fare

 

[elmurcis]

Imagine doing that in deity and still win the game

Not sure what would be bigger challenge - spending a lot of turns just to win Liberalism to take that small tech or managing to get into good position without Agriculture and any farms built by player (well, you can get many farms through warfare, ofcourse (except would need to trade for Corn/Wheat/Rice as resource).
Next forum game challenge?

 

[sampsa]

Well, I had a game where I voluntarily didn't get agriculture...

Spoiler :

Isolated, no grains, no city really needs farms/irrigation.

Just pointing out that it is possible to not need agri.

 

[elmurcis]

Well, I had a game where I voluntarily didn't get agriculture...

Spoiler :

Isolated, no grains, no city really needs farms/irrigation.

View attachment 495702

Just pointing out that it is possible to not need agri.

Very good example - thank you