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Why I think people like Solver and Bhuric are doing a disservice to the Civ community

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by tempacc, Dec 20, 2007.

  1. tempacc

    tempacc Chieftain

    Feb 10, 2007
    I think it's wonderful that people like Solver and Bhuric step forward to help make Civilization more playable by making patches to fix bugs and errors in the game. As far as I know, no-one ever asked them to make the patches, but they chose to, presumably because they want everyone to enjoy the game. Wonderful.

    However, I would like to put forward an argument stating that I feel these people are actually doing a disservice to the Civilization community. By making patches (to fix bugs that are often introduced in the official patches) they are giving much less reason for the developers to make official patches. As far as the developers are concerned, there is no rush to develop a new patch, since one has already been made that fixes all the errors. Why rush? Why even bother making one at all?

    I hope you see my reasoning here. I believe that if people like Solver and Bhuric continue to make patches, the Civilization community are not going to see many more official patches (if any at all), and any that may be released will be separated by many months. The developers have no reason to hurry, or even do a good job. Any sloppy work on their part will just be corrected by someone else, and a hundred times quicker at that.

    Thank you for reading.
  2. joasoze

    joasoze Warlord

    Nov 20, 2005
    This is bull....

    They are fixing bugs, and that makes it a lot easier for the developers to fix the same bugs in official patches.
  3. IronCrown

    IronCrown Black Foe of the World

    Jun 21, 2007
    Well, that's almost exactly that which I just posted in another thread... only that I don't regard it as 'disservice'. While I think that a new patch would have been released sooner if not for Bhruics work, sooner doesn't mean soon ;) We would have been stuck with all those bugs for several months in any case. Thanks to Bhruic the worst bugs were fixed in days, so I could continue to enjoy the game.

    Personally I don't care when the official patch comes out, I don't really need it. Of course that doesn't change the fact that Firaxis acts really lame on this.
  4. Horace

    Horace Likes to ski

    Jul 31, 2007
    Personally im just happy that I dont have to wait around for months (because even if they were quicker than they are, it would be months) to play bts with the bugs ironed out. The game using Bhruics patch is far superior to the offical patch version.
  5. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

    Mar 26, 2002
    not sure i agree. I view a user made patch like a mod. -and the game is set up for customizing.
    Also - a fraction of buyers look at this site and would have not have even heard about any non-company patch.
    Lastly, an unofficial patch would have no great impact on a programmer as it is their job to write code. Seems one would look at something like a user patch if they wanted to, or not- if they are convinced of their own expertise.
  6. DrJambo

    DrJambo Crash-test dummy

    Dec 27, 2001
    Athens of the North (Edinburgh)
    It doesn't really matter where the fixes come from, as long as they do come and in a timely enough manner. The Civ 4 series has been a tremendous success in my opinion, mainly because of the ability of prominent community members to produce high quality modifications to the game. Given the predictably slow nature of official patching, which incidentally is not guaranteed to fix all the issues, then I will forever endorse unofficial community fixes, no questions asked.

    The only problem as I see it could be multiplayer. Unofficial patches hinder MP since presumably everyone playing using them would be required to have the same versions so to speak, or failing that stick with the official 'bugged' version.

    Firaxis still have a duty, but I don't for a moment get the impression that this unofficial patching has adversely affected the official patching process. If anything, and this is based on past experience with Civ III Conquests, the contrary might be a truer representation.
  7. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

    Oct 30, 2005
    The Dreaming Spires
    From previous experience with Civ 3 and Civ 4, the slow patching of BtS is nothing out of the ordinary - it has always been this slow (if not as badly tested). Conquests in particular took forever for some fixes, and was never fully patched in the end. These didn't really have unofficial patches though, at least not on the scale of Bhruic or Solver's efforts. The Harkfix for Civ 4 1.09 is about the closest I can think of.

    Bluntly, Solver and Bhruic produced fixes for most of the bugs in a matter of days - we'd have been waiting months with Firaxis anyway, and I'd like to be able to play the game properly in the meantime. Solver also managed not to introduce the array of bugs that 3.13 did.

    Multiplayer still remains a major problem - hence the requirement for a final official patch. Thanks to Bhruic, people can however enjoy an otherwise functional game while waiting for it. If anything I'd have thought Firaxis would be more likely to get a move on to get to a version that doesn't require an unofficial patch. Patching is all about maintaining a good image, and beside Solver and Bhruic's efforts they are looking downright incompetant.
  8. BumpNsubz

    BumpNsubz Warlord

    Jan 5, 2007
    Well Tempacc, I don't mean to offend you in anyway with my response so keep that in mind as you read...

    You have obviously never worked for a computer gaming corporation before. Or any other big corporation for that matter. People like Solver & Bhuric aren't their employees. While this may sound bad, it's actually a HUGE plus. They aren't restrained by company rules, deadlines, ideas falling on deaf ears, etc,... And let's not forget that many of the ideas and complaints that are mentioned in these forums are read by Firaxis and bounced around the executives for a decision on whether the issues are severe enough for a fix. While this process may take days or weeks to even take off and green-lighted, people like Solver & Bhuric get it done in as little time as a day. This not only proves to the gaming companies that a fix was needed, but also that it is possible. Don't think for a second that there aren't unofficial patches out there that includes modifications that weren't implicated in the next official patch. But most idea's do get incorporated, once they can be proved and approved by the company. So it STILL takes days to weeks before an official patch is released, there is just more of a chance that what we want to see changed, is.
  9. eris

    eris King

    Mar 4, 2004
    On this forum
    I cannot find a way to communicate the strength of my disagreement with you without falling into a rant. I do not know where you get your concept that there is any relationship between the actions of a minority of the user community and the schedules of Firaxis. It seems a flimsy assumption on which to base your conclusions, one with no corroboration that I have seen. We may have affected content, but not corporate schedules.

    Others here have given extremely reasonable reactions to your points. I hope somewhere in there is a truth you can hear. In the meantime, I am going to go sit on my hands rather than type more. (On second thought, that sounds very painful. I'll just stop, instead.)
  10. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Oct 16, 2005
    i never do this, but ...

    just going by the thread title, :rolleyes:. they've given me a way to play BtS without stuff like seriously game-breaking bugs caused if a civ has died in the game and somebody creates a new colony, or a worker on a transport capturing a different enemy city, for free with no effort, if my real troops conquer one and the transport happens to be in the right place at the right time? imo putting in the time and effort to fix things like that and make the patch work so that the community can play the game rather than sit around waiting for Firaxis to do that is a service i cannot thank them enough for.

    and you even admit that, but then want all of us to have to deal with the buggy official one based on some principle that has what i consider off-base assumptions in it??? i think BumpNsubz is is right in his post.
  11. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

    Jun 27, 2006
    World's largest lentil producer
    I think it's important to stress "A hundred times quicker." Bhruic and Solver could have decided to spend the time they did patching up this game watching The Price is Right reruns instead, and we would still never have a guarantee that Firaxis was going to patch their mistakes in a timely fashion, or at all. Bhruic and Solver have made the game better for our little community here for months now - I cannot consider this anything but a great service.

    As for the disservice, perhaps you should direct your feelings in this regard towards the group of people you think are saying "Well, it's done unofficially - let's watch The Price is Right instead of patching this game officially." THAT is the disservice, particularly considering a lot of this game's community doesn't hang around Civfanatics and will likely never know this unofficial patches exist.

    In short? Don't blame the people trying to fir Firaxis's mistakes for Firaxis's possible reaction - that's Firaxis's disservice, not the community's.
  12. OTAKUjbski

    OTAKUjbski TK421

    Mar 4, 2007
    not at my post
    I don't care if the patches are official or unofficial. If they make my game work, that's all I need.
  13. Party

    Party Warlord

    Oct 11, 2007
    Jeez what are you smoking?
    That's like saying helping a hiker with a broken leg is a disservice to the country because it makes the government spend less money on search and rescue.
  14. Todd Hawks

    Todd Hawks Warlord

    Nov 13, 2005
    Your reasoning, while sound at first glance, is omitting several points that need to be taken into consideration.

    First of all, there is no indication that Firaxis would fix the stuff themselves. What they did regarding other games suggests that they usually put out a patch or two and then leave, no matter how many bugs are left (which is standard practice when you look at the big publishers (EA, 2kGames, Atari,...), so I'm not really blaming Firaxis for it).

    Secondly, those unofficial patches can only be released because Firaxis made the game extremely moddable. So, worst case, this will mean that future games will be made just as moddable. Which is good. And allows others to do a quick(er) patch again.

    Thirdly, and this has been said before, this helps the company to find and fix the bugs.

    And finally: I want that patch rather now than some months later. But that's admittedly not a good reason, just personal preference.

    So, while I understand your point and you're right in principle, the advantages of unofficial patches far outweigh the disadvantages.
  15. sabremookie

    sabremookie Chieftain

    Sep 24, 2007
    I disagree with this post 100%. By fixing bugs, Bhuric and Solver get many of the minor or major annoyances out of the way and allow us to find other bugs that we would not have seen. That way we can point out more to the devs who can fix them too. Though we wait longer for a patch more gets fixed. Without Bhuric or Solver we would wait just as long or almost as long for a patch and much less would be fixed. Also, by patching, Bhuric and Solver are developing their skills and those of the community so that they can fix whatever is left over from the devs next patch. Ultimate, Bhuric and Solver are doing a great service. I think that you have allowed logic to lead you down an entirely wrong path to suggest that Bhuric and Solver are harming the community. I just think you are wrong.
  16. Echo of Celts

    Echo of Celts Just Plain Crazy

    Jan 18, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    I purchased BTS Mainly for the colony feature. It was something I wanted, and if I had to play the game with that one feature so messed up that it ruined perfectly good games, I wouldn't be very happy.

    To imply someone taking their own time to do a free service is a disservice is simply wrong.

    Bhruic's patch has been nothing but helpful and if you don't like it, don't use it. Simple.
  17. eewallace

    eewallace King

    Nov 1, 2005
    Yeah, I originally decided to be patient and wait for the "official patch" because I found BTS to be playable, albeit flawed. But then when the official patch came out and introduced some really annoying errors, I found that I really needed Bhuric's unofficial patch to make the thing playable again...
  18. Verge

    Verge Let's hug it out

    Nov 17, 2007
    Science/Technology forum!
    I do, absolutely and categorically.

    So much so, that I think we should remove the unofficial 3.13 patch from the database, censor any mention of it from the forums, and then go to every civver's house and forcibly delete the patch from their comps. That way, we can ensure that everyone has a miserable 3.13 gaming experience until an "official" patch comes out in some distant and ambiguous future. While we're at it, we can attempt to destroy every DVD, digital copy, and media reference of American Idol in the hope that if we do just that, everybody will conveniently forget that such a show of unmitigated inanity ever existed.

    Or, alternatively, we can accept the fact that once you let the Britney out of the womb, you can't take her out of the tabloids.
  19. Osama Bin Davis

    Osama Bin Davis Warlord

    Sep 28, 2007
    Canberra, Australia
    The lesson to learn from this is companies should release games complete and not rely on patches at all. But you wont get that because it is easier, people whinge about games not coming out faster, and then the whinge when they don't get an update every week.
  20. Stolen Rutters

    Stolen Rutters Deity

    Jun 7, 2006
    I get the same attitude at work.

    I'll focus on what I want. My work has to mean something.

    When I tried to help the goals of the organization, I was slammed for doing someone else's job, except that nobody else stepped up to do it, and wouldn't for some months, long after the company got a black name for it.

    It got real discouraging, and I hadn't been doing much more than my own work the past couple years. (It gave me a lot more time to post in this forum too!) ;)

    Now they're complaining that I take no ownership of the projects I'm working in. Well, I decided that I'm going to do what needs to be done in 2008, and be a champion of the projects I'm working on again... no matter how many people I piss off. I figure, the more negative types I piss off, the better. They're going to slam you regardless if you help, or if you stand back.

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