Why is the AI so bad at Island games?

[spfun]

On island/archipelago/small continents the AI are just especially bad. MUCH MUCH more than any Pangea or land based map. Its not just there lack of boats, Its like there broken at using water for the most part. They almost never take out other island nations, by the end of the game most of the nations are still alive. While on a Pangea its 1 super AI or a few vs you mostly. City States actually get killed on Pangea but on a archipelago you basically have free rein to buy as many maritimes as you like... no challenge at all with ICS trading post spam.

As well as giving the AI more boats on those maps they need to fix the invasion AI, i want to play an island map & have a challenge, i want to see that super AI from those Pangea maps that can actually beat you... For example montezuma took over the entire world except North/South America, i bet he would invade that next if it was connected by land... but nope i sit safely in South America... Using my Allied Maritime City States from Australia & a city in NZ... why can't he use the water? China has 1 city left on japan... why can't he take it lol.

Civ4 AI was sort of stupid with it to, when i saw the removal of transport boats i thought finally! maybe this will make the AI better at water based maps! boy was i wrong... SMAC was good, i had OCC games where Morgan or the Peacekeepers took over the world except my City. Sorry im rambling now its just getting frustrating. What version of Civ will i need to get good Water usage AI!!!

TLDR - Fix Water AI, giving archipelago maps some challenge.

 

[DaveGold]

Naval invasions are quite complex to manage and you need quite a few naval units to form a convoy. I expect a smart human player could break a convoy anyway if they had an equivalent navy and used comparable tactics. It will certainly be interesting to see how the designers intend to deal with it.

What version of Civ will i need to get good Water usage AI!!!

BTS wasn't bad to be honest. Naval units often hunted in pairs or packs. It used massive armadas for some incredibly big invasions. It maintained decent sized fleets. It researched for oil and settled new cities to collect the oil. There was certainly a threat of naval invasion from a higher tech nation.

 

[Patholos]

Aquaphobia - morbid fear of water

Maybe the dev responsible for the naval AI was not a good swimmer?

But to be fair, I've seldom seen any CIV game where the AI is any good on the ol'blue, they usually end up in davy jones locker real quick.

 

[CarloTheCurious]

I've been conquered by the AI on a huge Archipelago map - it was on Deity though, and it took a long time for them to grind me down (especially considering the relative numbers of units & tech levels).

On a similar map in another game the AIs seemed to take turns picking on one other AI (they never got around to me, fortunately) - but even with 8 or 9 civs vs 1 they never got wiped out...

I think it may be similar to the land warfare issue where the AI always moves its ranged units into melee range - only more so.

 

[spfun]

I just find its silly how much easier an island map is compared to pangea, like a few games ago i wanted to test just how bad the AI were so i did a OCC on an archipelago map on Immortal on a standard map. By the end i won by culture, not 1 nation declared war on me, not 1 nation was destroyed by the end. 2 nations made it to the end of tech tree but never built the apollo program. It was just so painful to play. I didn't expect or even want to win. I wanted to get blown away, but since its a water map...

Did the same thing on a pangea & i was dead just after AD.

 

[tsoky]

AI seeems extremely stupid at water invasions, but what is more stupid is that you cannot protect embarked units by moving a military naval unit (frigate, trireme) on the same tile. It makes them virtually impossible to protect. I think embarked units should be classified like non-combat (workers, generals).

 

[Baleur]

Maybe the island/sea-AI programmer was hired from The Creative Assembly
(semi-inside Empire Total War joke, if you've played it, you know..)

At least in Civ5 they CAN move across water

 

[jahsoldier]

If you start a small continents map and you're the only one on your continent, you've pretty much won already on any difficulty. Expand, cover continent, launch invasion on neighbours as soon as possible. Your capital is completely safe, at worst the AI will send over tons of embarked units to be picked off one by one by your frigates. Liz is the only one who builds naval units to any degree and even she has no idea how to use them.

From what I hear, a mod that would increase the naval production rate of the AI would be a relatively easy one (all to do with 'flavours'), but whether or not they'd know what to do with all these boats is another matter.

On a side note, does anyone know this: when a land unit is embarked, does it count as a land or naval unit? (Thinking about ship combat bonuses vs land and naval here)

 

[gornard]

Maybe part of the reason the AI doesn't declare war so much on island maps is because its borders are almost never adjacent. If there are one or more on an island they will probably fight it out, but across oceans they generally don't care. Proximity seems to be the prime cause of war in civ v.

 

[Jharii]

Why is the AI so bad at _____________?

It needs a complete overhaul, naval strategies included.

 

[MRM]

AI seeems extremely stupid at water invasions, but what is more stupid is that you cannot protect embarked units by moving a military naval unit (frigate, trireme) on the same tile. It makes them virtually impossible to protect. I think embarked units should be classified like non-combat (workers, generals).

I guess you can protect your embarked unites with some warships by using zone of control - but so far there was no need for me to try it ...

 

[carlisimo]

I’m surprised and disappointed. It’s a classic computer game problem but I thought the embarkation system would solve it, by letting the AI treat ocean tiles like land tiles with movement modifiers. I thought it was just transports that AIs couldn’t handle (from Warcraft II to the Total War games, it’s always been a problem). I guess it’s even harder than that.

But maybe it is just a proximity issue. That’s a real problem too – it should be easier to keep on good terms with neighbors, and it should be more likely for a distant civ to declare war on you. Especially if you’re winning. That’s what’s incredible to me, the AI doesn’t try to stop you when you start running up the score.

 

[zonk]

I’m surprised and disappointed. It’s a classic computer game problem but I thought the embarkation system would solve it, by letting the AI treat ocean tiles like land tiles with movement modifiers. I thought it was just transports that AIs couldn’t handle (from Warcraft II to the Total War games, it’s always been a problem). I guess it’s even harder than that.

Sorry - but I have to stick up for IV here....

The AI handled naval warfare QUITE well in IV. It would most definitely create armadas, with adequate force disposition and completely appropriate escorts (though, I don't think shore bombarded cities much). As someone that loves archipelago maps and naval warfare generally -- IV was a clear champion... Even the HOI series, which IS a wargame, can't hold a candle to how well IV handled the oceans.

That said, I cannot contribute much to the larger issue because I'm in that (small, I realize) minority that thinks "embarkation" is an absolute abomination against god and logic. I'm not a masochist pining for tedious TP loading, but there's also no way I'm ever going to be made to like a system that basically has a 'magic tech instantly allows everyone to swim the Pacific ocean from Osaka to San Fran' mechanic.

 

[alvan]

One game I had my own isle on archipelago and one turn Alexander has like 6-7 embarked units at my border coupled with some triremes. They didnt do anything though, just idled for like 20+ turns and then went away. No DoW or insults, no nothing.

Propably some bug with DoWing with embarked units or something, who knows.

 

[MAntoninus]

If you think the AI sucks at land combat, you haven't engaged in a naval war.

Race to destroyers and you own Archipelago on any setting with city shelling and units being massacred on the shores or just off shore.

If the AI gets to fighters and nuclear subs they're ok, but they don't concentrate fire to destroy units and you are able to beat more with fewer. If they learn that trick, they'll bury us and have to be throttled down production wise.

 

[winthrowe]

On a side note, does anyone know this: when a land unit is embarked, does it count as a land or naval unit? (Thinking about ship combat bonuses vs land and naval here)

They count as a civilian unit. max damage capped at 4 by global define, destroyed instantly by moving onto them, even trireme vs GDR.

 

[Cilpot]

The AI has always been helpless when it comes to naval warfare.

I really thought that the new embarkment functionality would remedy this, but alas..

 

[zonk]

The AI has always been helpless when it comes to naval warfare.

I really thought that the new embarkment functionality would remedy this, but alas..

I need to repeat again - the IV AI was NOT helpless at naval warfare.

I'm not claiming it was a genius, but it worked within the standard limitations of most AIs. It did what it should have done - it built the proper unit types, it stacked appropriately, and it landed expeditionary forces in force.

 

[AllYourHorses]

I'm currently playing my first game, biggest map with max number of other civs and city-states, archipalegos. I'm playing as Russia, on normal difficulty (whatever they call it).

I'm just amazed at how bad the AI is, especially at diplomacy and trading levels. For warfare... I only had one nation go to war with me, for no other reason than my army being too small (however, it didn't consider that my economy was much stronger, and that when I modernized my army, a dozen turns later, he lost about 6 cities of his 11 or so without me breaking a sweat).

My gripes are the simple-mindedness of the A.I. If it calculates it can beat you, it will start hating you and attacking you. Forming friendships is impossible.

Most importantly, though, is that the bots will buy whatever you offer, whether they need it or not. As Russia, I get double resources for a lot of things... notably horses. I don't know if this is common, but I currently have almost 3000 horses available. The bots don't need them any more than I do, but they keep on buying it anyways. I buy *everything* with horses. I totally destroy the global economy by draining everyone's resources on horses. If I cared enough, I could, every turn, go offer horses for everyone's gold. They don't only give you their gold, but also open borders and their luxuries: so I get access to every single luxury in the game, while not giving any of the many I produce myself, therefore limiting their growth as much as I can. I'm mid-modern tech and rare are those who finally got to renaissance. I've got 5 city-states in my pocket (only bothering with the friendly and neutral ones), finally explored every little corner of the map and sending out new waves of settlers to grab up the vast lands filled with oil, aluminum, coal, and luxuries that the others still haven't gotten the means to explore yet. Hell, they don't even have the techs for these yet.

To tech even faster, I make loans to the bots. I give them the gold they need to do a joint research in exchange for gold per turn. I end up paying a little more gold than they, but I figure 525-650 gold for a tech is worth it, especially since it leaves the bots with no gold on hand and an ever-growing deficit to deal with.

All in all, I'm so far pretty disappointed at how easily (and badly) the AI is exploitable. I hadn't considered that they were better on land maps (I always favored islands to be able to play with great infrastructures instead of just rushing with warriors).

Should you not have known, now you also know a few ways to completely cripple your AI competition.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

The AI needs to be programmed to achieve and recognize Naval Superiority. Without it, there is no point launching a naval invasion.

Also, to achieve Naval Superiority, the AI needs to build a lot of ships. However, it does not seem to favor cities on the coast, judging by the city locations suggested to my settlers -- lots of times just one hex off the coast.

Furthermore, the AI does not even recognize - and as far as I can remember, never recognized - small bodies of water. It is quite happy to build up a navy on what amounts to a large lake.

The fact is that a game like Civ V requires a lot of code to run the various levels of the AI. Given the length of the games and different economic and combat strategies required in various eras, the design and testing needs to be rather extensive.

I see more and more games running out of coding steam by the time the eye candy is finished and the more difficult challenge of implementing a decent AI is simply abandoned.

This is why many games simply don't even bother with more than just the most basic AI and implement multi-player instead. However, the Civ V designers seem to have messed that up as well.