Why Leonardo's Workshop not back in CIV 4?

[Vaiks]

I was playing a little CIV 2 over the weekend and was wondering why Leonardo's Workshop was not back in Civ 4...

Is it too powerfull? I would love to have all my units upgraded for free...

 

[Meffy]

I think it would be too powerful, yes. IIRC upgrades cost more now (someone please correct me if this is wrong), and Leo's Shop would be a HUGE, probably game-unbalancing, advantage.

... which is fine if I'm the one who built it, but if not... yipe!

 

[alco75]

Upgrades are horribly, nastily expensive compared to Civ3. I used to play 3 on the 'fair' level (was it called 'Regent'?) and be able to upgrade all my defenders in all cities every new defender tech. Spears to Pikes. Pikes to Muskets. Muskets to Rifles. Rifles to Infantry. Infantry to Mech. In Civ4 on Noble, all I can afford to upgrade is a handful of boats here and there.

 

[Lucas87]

well it could be made to just halve upgrade costs and it could expire fairly quickly for the purpose of balance. But I think one of the main reason's is that it is Leonardo's. It seems all wonders attributed to a specific person have been removed or renamed to take out their name. I suppose the idea is that they have been replaced (sort of) by Great People. It would be wierd anyway to have Leonardo born in one country and have his workshop built somewhere else.

 

[Big Bottom]

A wizard did it.

 

[Screw Flanders]

No weirder than saladin demanding pigs from me and buddhism being founded in washington (happened last game).

 

[warpstorm]

It was way too powerful.

 

[oagersnap]

It was way too powerful.

Couldn't they make it in civ4 so it's -25% upgrade cost? (Instead of 50% in civ3)

 

[Black Guard]

I miss the Sun Tzu as well. That isnt too powerful is it? and the old Pyramids which built a granary in every city on the continent. Easily the 2 most powerful wonders of Civ 3 along with Sistines Chapel.

25% for leanardos sounds good, but it could still unbalance things a bit.

Wot u guys think?

 

[ComradeDavo]

Couldn't they make it in civ4 so it's -25% upgrade cost? (Instead of 50% in civ3)

I still think that would be rather too powerfull. Whilst I did use it alot in Civ3, I think Civ4 is better without it.

 

[Nakar]

I miss the Sun Tzu as well. That isnt too powerful is it? and the old Pyramids which built a granary in every city on the continent. Easily the 2 most powerful wonders of Civ 3 along with Sistines Chapel.

25% for leanardos sounds good, but it could still unbalance things a bit.

Wot u guys think?

Sun Tzu's would be far too powerful in 4, but at the same time kinda bad. Granted, buildings not costing upkeep means 'free x in every city' wonders aren't QUITE as good anymore, but I feel that the effect of a barracks is pronounced in 4 and the human player would plan for it better than the AI, who would likely have too many barracks up to make the wonder worth building. Plus in the hands of an Aggressive civ you're just asking for trouble.

Still, I don't think Sun Tzu's would be worth building. The Eiffel Tower is good because you can build it before Broadcast Towers become available, sparing you the need to ever build them yourself (and allowing you to put off Mass Media if you aren't concerned with losing the UN). There's no way to make Sun Tzu's come before Barracks, and their effect isn't as useful for the conqueror as it was in 3 thanks to city resistance post-conquest and changes to the way the building works.

Actually, now that I think on it, Sun Tzu's does still exist in 4. It's called The Pentagon.

 

[Efexeye]

A wizard did it.

10 points for the Simpsons reference!

 

[gunkulator]

No weirder than saladin demanding pigs from me and buddhism being founded in washington (happened last game).

Yesterday in my game, Saladin founded Christianity which is historically rather amusing.

 

[Dismal]

All those of you saying it would unbalance it need to remember: a perfectly balanced game will never end. The whole idea behind these thigns is to give you a bonus. Don't think of it as unblanacing the game so much as it gives the players who builds it a bonus. 50% is a little too much I agree, but 25% would be just peachy.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Yesterday in my game, Saladin founded Christianity which is historically rather amusing.

In my very first game The Germans founded Judaism, which I believe is the very definition of irony.

 

[vinstafresh]

I have played over 20 games and I didn't even miss it until I read this thread!

I don't mind the wonders with free buildings on its continent are gone. Wonders aren't the crutches they used to be, they are nice welcome bonusses which are worth building.

 

[Oho]

I miss the Sun Tzu as well. That isnt too powerful is it? and the old Pyramids which built a granary in every city on the continent. Easily the 2 most powerful wonders of Civ 3 along with Sistines Chapel.

25% for leanardos sounds good, but it could still unbalance things a bit.

Wot u guys think?

Well Pentagon is toned down version of Sun Tzu, gives you half baracks in all cities and generally speaking one promotion.

 

[Vaiks]

I agree with the 25% drop on upgrade costs. But the feeling of your great library giving you free techs and leonardo's workshop than upgrading all your units for free is very good indeed!

 

[Good Omens]

I still think that this is a reason to add in Great Military Leaders. One of their powers could be to allow cheap upgrades in a single city (like Great Scientists setting up an Academy).

 

[mjs0]

I still think that this is a reason to add in Great Military Leaders. One of their powers could be to allow cheap upgrades in a single city (like Great Scientists setting up an Academy).

I like this idea in principle but that implementation would lead to having to keep track of the cities containing the cheap upgrades and funneling troops through it. Too much MM for my liking...
Perhaps a better approach would be a Military Great Person optionally creating a city improvement that gives all troops built there a free promotion that reduces their upgrade cost. This promotion woud either be impossible (or very hard, maybe after combat 5) to get otherwise.
Given the large gold bonuses available from other great people it should be possible to keep this balanced as a great person ability by tweaking the upgrade savings until it feels right.