Why the pacing is NOT bad

[Clown2TheLeft]

However, this removes an important diplomatic device.

True enough, and being as the rest of diplomacy has already been removed, there'd be even less point in engaging in it.

Later!

--The Clown to the Left

 

[FuzzyWeasel]

Oh... so you couldn't use any of your units thoughout the entire game, not just the end? Yeah. That makes sense.




Later!

--The Clown to the Left

I dont get why people do this. These people are having an intelligent, respectfull conversation and you come in with a snide, rude comment. I'd like to point out that your statement makes absolutely no sense as well. What the poster is saying is that he likes the pace and speed pre-industrial and would like to be able to "use" (ie: build and fight with) units past that age. If you are any good with science you are flying through techs at one ever 2-3 turns past industrial and you are uncovering new units so fast that you dont have time to build and use each unit. If the post-industrial era was paced as well as the early games... we could have massive musketeer fights just like we have massive maceman/swordsman fights now.

Reading your statement makes no sense... one way or the other. The only real thing that is clear to understand is that you are being a butt with a sarcastic attitude. He made sense... you didn't.

Join the conversation for real please or... as a wise man once said.. STFU.

-Weasel

 

[joasoze]

I also feel that the speed of the final 1/3 of the game on Epic is too rapid. If someone could just make a mod for just this problem or point in the direction of the settings that I have to change for this I would be a happy puppy (or thereabouts)

I think that the price of everything in the endgame should be a little higher (can Inflation be ajusted to achieve this?), and I think that the research speed should be adjusted quite a lot.

 

[MRM]

I also feel that the speed of the final 1/3 of the game on Epic is too rapid. If someone could just make a mod for just this problem or point in the direction of the settings that I have to change for this I would be a happy puppy (or thereabouts)

I think that the price of everything in the endgame should be a little higher (can Inflation be ajusted to achieve this?), and I think that the research speed should be adjusted quite a lot.

Look in the modding section there is a tool programm to change the cost of techs for each era ...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140264

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well, I always though, if pacing was made slower in modern age, that SS component cost needs to be higher too.

Otherwise you would get Civ3 situation when you alwasy finish components before tech is discovered to build next one (so it's not SS race, but science race).

 

[Clown2TheLeft]

Weasel:

I do this because his statement regarding the pace of the game made no sense to me.

He said that the end-game has techs flying by, with new units popping up at every tech, ultimately causing a race for the spaceship.

Then he goes on to say that he likes that (?) and wish the rest of the game was the same (!). I fail to see how this could be enjoyable.

Clear?

Furthermore, I responded to what he said--I didn't get personal with uneducated character assessments of the original poster. I didn't insult him, didn't call him names. Your admonishments to engage in civilized discourse kind of lose steam when you engage in a lower level of banter than anyone else has expressed on this thread thus far.

So.

Do you want milk and sugar with your nice big cup of STFU, or do you take it straight?


Later!

--The Clown to the Left

 

[whb]

One solution would be to put a slight log function on the research rate - so that throwing more and more beakers at research has ever-diminishing returns. That would encourage spending a bit of money on upgrading units and support costs. (It's also a bit more realistic - throwing 5 universities at a research project does not make it the discovery happen 5 times faster)

Upping the support cost of modern units would also encourage upgrading, and reduce of units on the board in the modern age, lessening both the player burden of pushing massive armies around and the processor burden of dealing with all those units on the board. This would also increase the risk and fun in modern wars (10 tanks vs 10 riflemen is safer, longer, and duller than 2 tanks vs 2 riflemen)

It could also be worthwhile changing it so that hammers are required as well as gold to do a unit upgrade. (No more "suddenly every archer becomes an infantryman" just when one player/AI is about to take a city).

 

[FuzzyWeasel]

Weasel:

I do this because his statement regarding the pace of the game made no sense to me.

He said that the end-game has techs flying by, with new units popping up at every tech, ultimately causing a race for the spaceship.

Then he goes on to say that he likes that (?) and wish the rest of the game was the same (!). I fail to see how this could be enjoyable.

Clear?

Furthermore, I responded to what he said--I didn't get personal with uneducated character assessments of the original poster. I didn't insult him, didn't call him names. Your admonishments to engage in civilized discourse kind of lose steam when you engage in a lower level of banter than anyone else has expressed on this thread thus far.

So.

Do you want milk and sugar with your nice big cup of STFU, or do you take it straight?


Later!

--The Clown to the Left

I can get enchanged in your tit-for-tat if you like though I typically do not.

Here is the quote you responded to since you seem to be missing it:

But from Industrial onwards, the tech pace is like 2-3 turns, and almost every tech gives a new unit. So we cannot use any of our units, it just becomes a race to build the spaceship.

I actually LIKE the pacing, thats why I'm here: to ask the developers who may read this to make end-game the same pace as the beginning.

If it is not painfully obvious to you that he is saying that he "LIKE"s the pace at the beginning of the game and not at the end of the game then sir you have an issue. He never said he liked the pace at the end of the game he said he "LIKE the pacing" and then explained what he meant in the same sentence.

The deal is you were so interested in flaming that you didn't have the common courtesy to go back and re-read and understand what the man said. Yes, he could have said it a little better but he was exceedingly clear in his point. Rather than talk to his point you decided to rant and make a snide and rude statment that was demeaning to someone having a discussion. In case you missed it... here is what you said and how you said it.

Oh... so you couldn't use any of your units thoughout the entire game, not just the end? Yeah. That makes sense.

You honestly maket he claim that "I didn't get personal with uneducated character assessments of the original poster. I didn't insult him, didn't call him names."?

Lets talk about what you did do. You use a slow intro that belies a tone that we all understand well... you then reworded his statement in your own words to bring out what in your mind was the most idiotic point... and then used bold-faced sarcasm to tell him that he made sense. You may not have used a specifically insulting word, but you made your point very clear and everyone got it. Don't be too childish to now retreat and hide behind a feigned innocence when you are called on the mat on it.

My issue was and still is with your pissy attitude. If you didn't understand something the man said then ask him. I have a beef with people taking the approach that you did. You didn't need to be rude or snide. No one was flaming anyone. For one reason or another you felt it best to demean a poster. Does this make you look better? Does it discourage people from disagreeing with you?

If you can't join the conversation based on the merit of your intellect and communication alone... then I still say STFU. And sir, I am not engaging in a lower level of banter. All I did was call out what you had done as something I didn't understand. Everyone knew you had done it... you knew you had done it... Don't get ticked at me because all I did was bring light to your actions. You flamed, you made no sense (now you make clear this was because you didn't bother to go back and re-read), and you were a troll. It was senseless.

-Weasel

 

[Rhandom]

It feels fast to people, because they're still used to the previous Civilization games.

It's natural for humans to fear and hate change.

No, the problem is that the pacing of the earlier games was good, and the pacing of the new game is not. The late era techs go by far too fast, because there are a gazillion ways to speed up research, and the tech cost is too low.

There are a LOT of things that were not well thought out, that degrade the game experience. Yes, you can compensate for some of them. Being able to compensate doesn't mean the game is good though. Especially when there is nothing that can make a modern war last outside of turning off all other victory conditions, and there is no future war at all.

When you look at all of the really, really dumb things they decided to change (suicide artillery being at the top of the list, no sea bombardment, no abject surrender of totally defeated foes, no early tech trades (heres a hint - if you didn't need writing to develop the tech, you don't need writing to teach the tech. Duh), et cetera ad nauseum), and then look at all of the things they could have to do expand the civ experience (2150 end with future tech, smart AI looking for a win, space warfare, undersea development, natural disasters, alien invasion, civil war over religion, et cetera ad nauseum), you can't help but walk away feeling disappointed.

They choked on this game. And the pacing is awful, on any setting. They need to double the late game tech costs. They need to make the space race at least a little challenging to acheive.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I will agree that the modern teching is a tad too fast - 2x research costs would sort it out imo.

 

[ranathari]

As a prior poster said, there is a tech tool for this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140264

I've used it and I've found it to be absolutely fantastic. I'm not sure how it works in game (by which I mean how it actually increases teching time - increasing beakers doesn't seem to be right because that would throw the AI when it comes to tech trading, given that the AI offers multiple techs with a total beaker value equivalent to your more advanced tech, or vice versa). Adjusting the tech times is a matter of personal preference; my defaults leave me with planes and infantry by the time the game ends (2050AD) which is the level I prefer.

Weasel: I applaud your sensible, mature and intelligent posts. Granted, English might not be Clown's (saves me ad homming him!) strongest point but that's no excuse for being a cock about things.

 

[homan1983]

The problem is that at the beginning the techs come 5-8turns per tech.

Also note that at the beginning, not all techs lead to new units. For example you have "farming" "mining" "masonary" "theology" "sailing" "currency"... and the list goes on.

This means that not only is the tech. pace slower, but you get new units every 2 or 3 techs. So after researching 20 technoliges, you now have 4 new units [as an example].

In industrial/modern however; not only are techs coming every 2-3 turns, but every tech has at least one, if not 2-4 different units.

This means that by the time it takes an infantry to march from your base to the enemy [lets face it, 1move/turn isn't exactly fast], they will have probably discovered the next tier unit.

I LIKE the pacing of both normal AND epic; in fact all my games have been on the standard speed. The reason I am slightly unhappy is because this "pace" is not consistent throughout the game.

I also noted someone talked about the tool created to modify tech. costs (as I recall by era). I like this mod, in fact I have downloaded it. Unfortunately I have yet to use it: this is because I would REALLY STRONGLY feel that having this fixed by firaxis will let it gain "widespread" acceptance and provide uniformity in the rules that people use to play their games.

 

[Bunion]

I'll have to try one of these mods see how they work, because I also feel the pacing at the end of the game is too fast. You really don't have time to try out any of the various improvements/units since once you do the apollo program your main goal is cranking out spaceship parts.

I did turn off space race in a custom game, but it got extremely boring though since I was always one civ short of voting me for diplomatic victory, I tried everything I could to get the last guy from pleased to friendly but it just didn't happen. The military victory was out of the question at that point since most of the other civs were up to future tech also. I guess I should have done the war earlier, since time victory sucks since you don't get any kind of bonus, just whatever your current score is.

 

[ranathari]

I would REALLY STRONGLY feel that having this fixed by firaxis will let it gain "widespread" acceptance and provide uniformity in the rules that people use to play their games.

I agree with your sentiments but you do have to consider that maybe Fireaxis wanted the later stages of the game to be more accelerated? The game was extensively beta tested (as documented on these forums) and if the testers were unhappy with the acceleration of the pacing then they would have said as much.

I tried everything I could to get the last guy from pleased to friendly but it just didn't happen.

That's actually a bug in the game - when it comes to voting, sometimes a civ will never side with you, irrespective of how they feel with you. One game I played saw Roosevelt constantly siding with Bismarck, even tho' they were cautious towards one-another but Roosevelt was friendly towards me.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well then why would they make it slower for upcoming patch?

From 1.08 readme (pulled off patch):
- increased cost of Apollo Program...
- increased SS parts cost...
- Animal Husbandry reveals Horses
- tweaked Rifling, Chemistry, Steel, and Railroad tech costs...
- increased late-game tech costs...
- can now add two specialists in size 1 city with Mercantilism...
- final score is now modified by difficulty level...
- Speed up load times
- Global performance enhancements

 

[Volstag]

On epic, the "pacing" is okay. But, as noticed by others, techs are researched at a progressively higher rate with each passing "era". By the time I hit the modern era, I'm learning new techs every 4 to 7 turns.

Civ III was marked by very distinct eras, which gave it a nice feel. In Civ IV, the mid to late game tends to feel rushed. Your milage may vary, of course.

Out of curiosity, what was the maximum amount of turns in Civ III? What is it in an epic game of Civ IV?