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women as Great people

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Jeppson, Aug 9, 2006.

  1. snipafist

    snipafist Prince

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    This is about the dumbest argument I've seen in a while. There WERE more great men than great women in history. Is this because men are inherently better? No. It's because all of recorded history (and to a lesser extent, even today) has been in a staunchly patriarchal social stage. Men control the resources, get education, wield power, and lead armies. Women stay at home and raise kids and do chores, and until recently, get no education and have no opportunities unless they are amazingly gifted or lucky, or more likely, both. I don't think the proper conclusion is to be upset that there are so few great women. I think the proper conclusion is to be amazed that there are great women at all, when one considers the huge social forces set against women ever excelling in the first place.

    I, for one, would be quite happy with them including more great women in the game (and hopefully a female great person unit of each sort, as women with beards is silly), but to insinuate that somehow the number of women and men on the great people lists should be equal is silly. And to insinuate that historians wrote women out of history is silly. Sure, they could've just overlooked Joan of Arc or Boudicca, but there's a huge gaping hole in history where those two women made their mark. No serious historian can ignore it, no matter how he tries. I grant that lesser important women may have been overlooked, but in the course of time, lesser important men get ignored and overlooked as well once their importance seems less relevant to the historian and his audience. We're left, just like in civ, with the towering giants of the field that nobody can forget. And that's just how it is.
     
  2. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    Marie Curie and Hypatia are Great Scientists.
    Joan of Arc is a Great Prophet in vanilla and a Great General in Warlords.
    I think there is one ancient female-sounding name among Great Artists, too.
     
  3. D'Artagnan59

    D'Artagnan59 The Gascon

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    Coco Chanel is a Great Merchant.
     
  4. Cookie Crumbs

    Cookie Crumbs Emperor

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    Regardless, as they say, behind every great man lies a great woman supporting him.
     
  5. Ribannah

    Ribannah Fighter Druid

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    Adding to the list:

    Sarah Bernhardt (Great Artist)
    Qin Liangyu (Great General)
    Joan Robinson (Great Scientist)
    Murasaki Shikibu (Great Artist)
     
  6. sydhe

    sydhe King of Kongs

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    I thought Rosalind Franklin was in as a great scientist.

    I'd add in Barbara McClintock (scientist) and Lady Murasaki (artist).
     
  7. sydhe

    sydhe King of Kongs

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    Burgundy switched sides because they could see the tide was turning.
     
  8. Proteus

    Proteus King

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    According to Locutus (who normally should know it best) she isn´t on the list, unless he forgot that he added her, of course ;)

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4383212&postcount=20
     
  9. geebo

    geebo Prince

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    Why is their no Jesus Christ of Nazareth as a Great Prophet? I haven't seen him yet, this boggles me...has anyone seen him?
     
  10. CharmzOC

    CharmzOC Chieftain

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    a 100 most influential people list.

    I have to side with lord olleus and snipafist. There are simply mose great men in recorded history than great women. is it fair? no. but thats just the way it is. Society, until very recently, has been very patriarchal. Men just got more opprotunities. but to try to even them out is simply absurd. to throw in more women for the sole purpose of having more women is wrong. The game desingers chose the names based on influence in history. They chose on merit, they didn't take affirmative action on the game. Anyways, the women named great people do the exact same thing as the male named people.


    As for the link, of the top 100 there are two women and both of them are leaders in the game
     
  11. Proteus

    Proteus King

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    Because he is the founder of one of the religions in civ.
    For this reason you also won´t see people like Muhammed, Kung-Fu-tse or Siddharta Gautama as great people in the game.
     
  12. snipafist

    snipafist Prince

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    But there is a Moses, oddly enough. I think putting other religion founders in would be for the best.
     
  13. vilemerchant

    vilemerchant Prince

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    Yeah, you're not supposed to even draw Mohommad let alone attack him with a chariot :p
     
  14. wilcoxchar

    wilcoxchar Warlord

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    Rosalind Franklin is in the game, I just saw her pop up as a Great Scientist.
     
  15. brianshapiro

    brianshapiro King

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    Arioch,

    The fact is even though that through modern western history, there was a tendency for men over women to be in certain positions, there has been no conspiracy to diminish the importance of women. There have been many important women leaders, from Elizabeth to Catherine to Isabella. They were recognized as great leaders by men at the time, and for centuries, without interruption, and without regard to their gender. Most historically important artists and scientists have been men, and one could say that its because they were educated differently, and this was true--women were discouraged and prevented from doing some things. However nobody was preventing women from doing simple things such as writing poetry. In fact one of the poets regarded with greatest acknowledgement during Western history, continuing uninterrupted has been Sappho. Women born in Christian Europe didn't find as much success--but I don't think this necessarily have to be attributed to either the idea that women are not as good, that women were given less opportunities, or that history has obscured women of great importance. There have been woman artists that have been rediscovered, like Artemisia Gentileschi and Judith Leyster, but anyone who argues that they were as good or as important as say Raphael or Caravaggio I think doesn't have a good understanding, and I think if they really rose to pre-eminence they would have been recognized. But I also don't think that this reflects a history of repression of women, though obviously women were given different environments and opportunities. Because, they could have done the same things as these male artists did, if they wanted. Overall, it just means that women had different roles in the society, which led them to have different focuses. Western society may have been patriarchical in one way, in some sort of social bias, but it was not exclusively and absolutely patriarchical, or else we wouldn't have seen any women leaders at all. There was no ..'conspiracy' to put women down.

    Remember, that liberal education was held important for women also in the West, from the Renaissance to the 19th century. Even courtesans in the Renaissance were highly educated and composed poetry. Women were held from doing the highest form of art generally, because it involved painting nudes, which violated women's modesty. Women were not actors in Shakespeare's plays either, because acting was considered immodest. Finance and empirical science was considered brute. In some way, in the way there was social bias, women were put on a pedestal in which they were elevated above the brutisms of men. If you went to a woman in the 17th century and said she was being repressed by a patriarchy she would laugh. This started to change as the role of women started to change in society, as society became industrialized and urban centers developed. Women did have positions of power and influence though.

    Women were considered less rational by intellectuals in the Enlightenment. In the 19th century, under the influence of Romanticism they were believed to be the standard bearers of morality and intuition. (here intuition became an attack on reason). The main thread in Western history is the belief that women were different than men, something that has been challenged in modern life to allow political equality to women. Surely we want political equality, and we don't want to pigeonhole any gender, but there is a question to whether the old beliefs were completely wrong. Postmodern feminists, rejecting the old formulation that masculinity is active and femininity passive, have nonetheless adopted the idea that femininity is transgressive---which says the same thing but with a positive spin which places women above men.
     
  16. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    One could argue that Abraham is the religion's 'Founder', that Moses just 'fleshed it out' ala Paul for Christianity

    Plus as odd as is is seeing St. Peter rush Divine Right to found islam, it would be even more bizzare seeing Buddha build the Temple of Solomon.

    (plus it avoids controversy nicely)
     
  17. romelus

    romelus NUCULAR!

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    WHO?




    (pst, you got any of her "work" for me? :lol:)
     
  18. romelus

    romelus NUCULAR!

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    according to some, you'll see him after this mideast conflict. those guys are bound to be right after all these years
     
  19. sydhe

    sydhe King of Kongs

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    Rosalind Franklin just showed up in my game of Warlords. I think she was in Civ IV vanilla, too.
     
  20. Ribannah

    Ribannah Fighter Druid

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    Helena Blavatsky (Great Prophet)
    Emma Goldman (Great Prophet)
    Khadija bint Khuwaylid (Great Merchant)
    Marilyn Monroe (Great Artist)
    Ursula Southeil (aka Mother Shipton) (Great Prophet)
    Kateri Tekakwitha (aka the Lily of the Mohawks) (Great Prophet)
     

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