Wonder Review

Stalker0 · Apr 18, 2020

Since we doing a big balance pass, thought it was worth doing a deep dive into wonders, to see where things stand. I'm going to cover the first two eras, and then I'll edit the post to add in the rest probably tomorrow.

ANCIENT

Spoiler :

CLASSICAL

Spoiler :

Omen of Peace · Apr 18, 2020

I think you forgot the Colossus.

Overall I agree with your comments.

- I've been going for Pyramids a lot less. It's very nice, but doesn't mesh well with my build orders, lately - whatever the early policy I choose. I would want to build it with Progress, but that's when it's hardest to get.

- Temple of Artemis is indeed the most lackluster of the early Wonders.

- Not quite agreed on Petra: it is good for any civ with enough good desert tiles (+3 to +6 gold from tiles and an extra TR is a lot of yields), and it is almost too good for trade civ. I got it recently with Portugal even without any good desert tile: an additional +4 Science +4 Gold per turn is a game changer this early (especially for Authority).

- I've long been an advocate of the Roman Forum; it's probably my favourite early Wonder. It gives you Paper, yields (I use it for an alliance, never an embassy) that are quite flexible (it depends on the CS around you but you can pick Culture/Faith/Science+Units depending on what you need), a military ally (which helps if a neighbour is a warmonger), AND happiness! And it speeds up the obtention of the 2nd Great Diplomat.

- Terracotta is awesome for early warmongers. Worker speed helps me catch up (I generally lag in terms of infrastructure at this point), and it grants boatloads of culture - perhaps too much, even. It's better than the Oracle culture-wise, but you don't get it all in one go.

- You must only aim for Parthenon as Tradition or if you took Goddess of Beauty. You need a Great Artist to theme it early to make it competitive, in my opinion.
But I know CrazyG loves it so I must be missing something.

- Colossus comes much later than Petra, so it's probably not as impactful, but its build conditions are much less restrictive so all trade civ should aim for it.

Drakle · Apr 18, 2020

Terracotta Army is great with fighting. Play as Aztecs, Authority and Orders and war will pay for itself and more. Particularly with the era scaling.

Great Lighthouse sucks. Maybe a free Great Admiral, like Great Wall is a free Great General. Could get in some early exploring, or a copy of a luxery. I also haven't even bothered on water heavy maps. Or if not a Great Admiral, maybe something like production bonus to naval units.

I like Temple of Artemis. It is a grab bag. Specialist unhappiness reduction (which means a happiness bonus to yields leading to even stronger growth), Food bonus and a free Herbalist, as a early wonder where production costs are still only somewhat more expensive then normal building. Most of that is relevant all game.

Lately I haven't really bothered too much with the Great Library. Maybe the tech situation is different on higher difficulties then 6 but I honestly haven't had much issue keeping pace with science or even running ahead, without grabbing this wonder, with all three early play styles (tall, peaceful wide and warmonger wide). It isn't bad, and like with the free herbalist it is tempting as just a slightly more expensive library.

I also like Mausoleum of Halicarnassus. The free Stone works means can you normally get the wonder built around the same time as improving the first quarry luxery. Then you have a springboard to using the extra production and production boost from stone and/or marble to get a followup wonder. I normally pair it and Artemis, since they synergies well with a strong capital.

Ankor Wat is also nice, and I haven't even used it in it Max potential, like Russia with the expanse patheon. It works really well with authority, both as steady boosts for existing cities, and getting new cities online faster. The food bonuses from Mandirs also aren't bad and make it a attractive boost for a capital, without sinking a religious belief on Mandirs.

Parthenon has somewhat of a wide boost to it, since it buffs a building in every city. Particularly the culture boost, when early game cities are limited on culture and get Bored really easily. And the theming bonus is easy.

Pyramids I've also skipped over recently. The early competition is fierce, and I generally rate getting a religion with Stonehenge higher than a more expensive settler, with a okay game wide bonus. There is a niche for it for some religious themed civs, but some of them also have things competing with building it, like early UU rushes (like Aztecs and Celts)

Roman Forum. Solid. Just has a lot of other stuff to build in it close tech proximity. I used to not bother because Hanging Gardens, but I now see its strength.

Hanging Gardens I can't stop grabbing. The 10 food bonus is nowhere near as powerful as it (or even 6 food) was in base civ with the inflation of food yields. But a free early garden remains very solid and well, once you start grabbing one food bonus, you want to keep grabbing others. Artemis, Hanging Gardens and Ankor Wat can make a really powerful capital, even without tradition. And there is no downside to as strong a capital as possible no matter the game style, since the capital past the early game has very little demand unhappiness. A lot of the time, being above water in empire wide happiness is because my capital out weighs some unhappy cities.

Petra - Solid most of the time. I used an early tradition Great Engineer to rush one in a freshly settled city, in a location that was nearly all desert/flood plains. I normally use that for a manufactory.

Using a Great Engineer to grab a wonder to make a city viable is also a solid strategy with Machu Picchu. I've settled a heavily mountainous area with a luxury, that otherwise had like three food tiles (a single flood plain and two sheep) and the rest was desert with mine and quarries. Grabbed Machu Picchu and sent a food caravan, and it took off like a rocket, and became a really good city.

Later wonders.

Cathedral of St. Basil is extremely niche. Maybe too niche. Maybe it needs a more general boost, because if you don't need the Reformation Belief lower threshold well why bother. Orders work as a belief in a lot of cities, gaining faith for each kill. A single order is nowhere near as good a free religious building, as really most of them. The Exp is nice, but Brandenburg Gate also gives supply and a free general, not just some minor faith. Maybe a boost for capturing cities, since it was built to celebrate taking Kazan and Astrakhan.

Alhambra. I don't particularly like it. It is a very niche boost for Authority. Cavalry can be great, but what if there is a water-heavy map or a ton of rough terrain. I think Authority needs a more general boost.

Borobudur. Solid if you want to do some religious spreading

Hagia Sophia. Also Solid.

Machu Picchu. Great Wide. Not really worth it if tall, unless you have a lot of mountains.

Notre Dame. Also Solid. Not a 100% must-have, but I see to grab it most of the time.

University of Sankore. This works really with Tradition, and the Mosque in the capital is where the bulk of its boosts come from.

Chichen Itza. Yes. Golden Ages are great.

Globe Theatre. Production costs for wonders start getting really high at this point, and there are so many other wonders to grab in this timeframe. The gold theme is weak. You get 12 Golden age points (2 per specialist x 2 x 3 buildings) or if you went tradition, you get an additional 6 Golden Age Points. 18 Golden age point (for working all those specialists) is something but I think a tad weak.

Himeji Castle. Niche if you are being pressed by other civs.

Leaning Tower of Pisa. Yes. GPP boost and a free one.

Porcelain Tower. Solid

Red Fort. Eh. Not great, and it doesn't really synergies that well with Fealty. Just jumping ahead Neuschwanstein, goes really well with Fealty which also has a boost for castles. 2 happiness per building in every city is very useful. And honestly the fairy tale castle is a throwback to dreams of Fealty.

Sistine Chapel. Solid

Summer Palace. Solid

Taj Mahel. Don't like unless I really need a golden age. I really don't like any of the beliefs and stuff that reward multiple religions, because it is so unstable. Maybe two or three at the very most, if you were weak on religion and actively dedicate trade routes to bring pressure to you. For 9 yeilds each one. And the Golden age points aren't immense either. I go for strong capitals, so 30+ population at this point often. 15 Golden age points. And a free one. But there are a lot of free ones in this part of the game.

Uffizi. Great.

SuperNoobCamper · Apr 18, 2020

Gotta disagree with a couple of points here and there.

Temple of Artemis: a victim of the change to forest/jungle production chopping; it used to be amazing in a jungle plantation for a very powerful start with the free herbalist, extra food and the 2 free specialist slots were very relevant.... it's still very worth building ....... besides tea plantations, the starts that actually benefit from it cannot afford it as they are mostly production low starts and losing the race for it is such a huge waste of time and hammers.
Terracotta Army: The amount of culture this thing yields in the mid game is unbelievable, it eclipses Parthenon and Oracle combined if you intend on going to war, it starts to fall off during renaissance but by then it had payed for itself and more.
Great lighthouse: Imperialism opener in the classical era + a free lighthouse .... this is outstanding IMO, the extra movement for ships is invaluable .... sure it's very map dependent but in the right map it's a game changer.
Hanging Gardens: It's amazing but the real power to it is the free garden not the +10 , not just for tall players but this thing with Symbolism takes off like a rocket even for progress players.
Pyramids: I don't think i ever go Pyramids rush unless i'm giving up religious race or i'm playing a civ that can make up for the lag in faith accumulation ..... unless you intend to delay the monument till turn 50.
Angkor Wat: I was a little bit skeptical about it -and i still am-, i build it only for the mandir if i have spare hammers, otherwise i just skip it.
Great Wall: There is not a single wonder in the game that could mean the difference between winning and losing like great wall, ridiculously powerful ... free walls, great general, free supply and unit hindrance for the price of one wonder ? yes, please.

phantomaxl1207 · Apr 18, 2020

I can't get the Great Lighthouse when I really want it.

I can only ever get Drama & Poetry with G Library, when I do go for it. As the best Tech to get out of it, otherwise I would get an early Classical Tech out of it, not that great. Just hard to build and get a good tech out of it.

Great Wall is annoying and oppressive to go up against.

Colossus is easy to pick up.

Machu Picchu looks very underwhelming, how long does it take to get any meaningful GPT from City Connections?

I don't care too much for Medieval Wonders overall. I would rather get Renaissance Era Wonders.

Leaning Tower is easy to get as well.

I like Porcelain, Sistine, and Summer Palace. Good effects.

Red Fort looks very weak from the monstrous +50CS it used to give to Cities months ago.

Uffizi and Globe Theatre are good for Culture/ Tourism.

Neuschwanstein gives good Happiness.

Slater Mill gives Coal if you need some.

Eiffel Tower is great.

I find most Policy Tree Wonders at least somewhat good. I would say Red Fort and Bletchly Park are 2 of the weaker ones. The Red Fort, since it longer turns your City into a super fortress. Bletchly Park comes way later than the other 2 Industrial Policy Tress, its Science only goes to Scientists, and I do like the 2 extra Spies.

I don't see the purpose of The Motherland Calls outside of the free Policy. Much worse than the other 2 Ideology Wonders.

I am surprised at the lack of Modern / Atomic Era Wonders.

All Information Era Wonders are powerful and worth picking up if they will provide you some benefit. All of them.

Drakle · Apr 19, 2020

Really when I play Fealty, I don't really have any issues defending myself anyway. Fealty doesn't provide any direct military benefits, but it works best for a wide empire, which normally has little issue defending itself. Particularly since half the wide empires would be using Authority.

So Red Fort, really doesn't provide much benefit.

Ideas.

The Red Fort was a city that was taken quite a few times. Quite an odd idea to be defensively focused. Persians, Marthas, Sikhs, rebels and British all took it.

The Red Fort was looted majorly twice. The first by the Persians, who took the Peacock Throne, and later by the British who took artworks and jewels. Maybe it should have some great work slots, for enemy civs to loot. Maybe not.

Maybe some wide empire boosts as a final boost to Fealty. Most final policy buildings give a boost that fits the rest of the tree. Votes for statecraft, great work slots and ways to generate them for Artistry, Great Person boosts for Tradition etc.

So maybe a doubling of base yields for religious buildings (including Monasteries) of the majority religion of the individual city (and any free ones from Wonders). Which gives a baseline of boosts that will always be there even if you didn't grab any religious buildings. And provides a bit of a crossroads of religions angle, like India and their empires had.

So +2 Faith, +3 Food, +3 Science is now 4 Faith, 6 food and 6 science in every city

Other buildings
Cathedral - 2 Gold, 2 Faith, is now 4 Gold and 4 Faith
Church - 4 Faith, 2 Culture is now 8 Faith and 2 Culture
Mandir - 3 Faith, 2 Food is now 6 Faith and 2 Food
Mosque - 2 Science and 3 Faith, is now 4 Science and 6 faith
Order - 2 faith, now 4 Faith (this one isn't much of a boost, most of Orders boosts are elsewhere)
Pagoda - No base yields
Stupa - 3 Faith and 2 Golden age points. 6 Faith, and 4 golden age points. No doubling of Tourism.
Synagogue - 3 Production and 2 Faith. Now 6 Production and 4 faith

Now of these, only the Pagoda and Order are a bit of an issue. So maybe a base extra faith. Order could get a boost to the City defence it provides (the Exp being boosted would be a little too strong). I have no idea how to boost the Pagoda really since it has a very narrow focus.

But even if you really cheese it, you can only get so many buildings. Bar the wonders, you can get 1 from policy, two with beliefs (and lose the boost other religious beliefs would provide) or three with Byzantium. I was thinking all religions buildings provide a double boost, but that might be too powerful, and be a good human exploit (convert city, get building, convert back) that the AI wouldn't use.

JamesNinelives · Apr 23, 2020

Some good discussion here!

Decent wonders
ToA can be quite useful with plantation or camp monopolies, similar to how Maus is good with quarries. The bonuses ToA offer aren't as obvious but if you unlock the tech early and you are going to build a herbalist anyway it's very much worth the hammers. That said I have no issue with it getting a buff to bring it up to line with other early wonders! ^^

Great Lighthouse is pretty strong IMO. Particularly when units have only 4 moves extra move and sight can really give you an edge in defending and exploring. Which for me are priorities, particularly on large maps. It's extra good if you are Carthage - more xp for your units, and those powerhouse UUs are now more mobile too! Again though, if it does get a buff I feel it can afford one without being OP.

I think Great Library is perhaps undervalued because it was so good in the base game (and some earlier betas) so got hyped a lot but isn't nearly as strong these days. That said... if you are focusing on science Great Library is for you. I think it's also significant that it is one of relatively few theming bonuses for great works of writing (most of them are for art). This wonder is best for Ashurbanipal, and arguably for other science-focus civs like Korea IMO.

I would also actually argue Parthenon is pretty strong for wide civs, especially on large maps. I guess my rating of it is biased by playing on the Huge map setting though. I see it built most often by civs going for a Culture victory though, and the tourism from the great work it provides + the wonder itself is notable. Of course, Oracle is awesome so that does somewhat overshadow Parthenon.

IMO Ankor Wat tends to be undervalued because it's not obvious when it's helping you. I crave new territory though, so any game where I am not playing Shoshone I go for Angkor Wat. The turn after you built it you tend to get a bunch of tiles in different cities and can purchase several more cheaply. Works best with civs like Russia, America, and God of the Expanse of course though.

Hijemi castle for me is great not because of the effect but because it gives me extra supply when I often am in need of it. I guess this one could get a touch more but I find it gets built by the AI pretty competitively already.

Strong Wonders
Pyramids: A settler that doesn't require pop and a bunch of passive boosts? IMO this wonder if great.
Stonehenge: Similarly, that faith goes a long way and culture, science and great engineer points are always welcome. This might be the strongest of the Classical Era wonders IMO for what it costs and only 1 tech unlock.
Hanging Gardens: Honestly I think this wonder if excellent. +10 food at that point is a big boost and free gardens early on is quite signficant. One aspect I think that is often overlooked is that this wonder if extra good if you have Citrus or Cocoa around your capital because Gardens give them a buff.
Oracle: agree with what has already been said, this is probably my favourite Classical Era wonder (and very competitive!)
Hagia Sophia: Great prophets are excellent, and free buildings + extra faith are always welcome.
St Peter's Cathedral: A wonder that lets you reform even if you are struggling to maintain your religion? I don't usually need it, but when I do it is invaluable!
Forbidden Palace: I purchase things all the time so this may actually be the best value wonder in the game for me. Not OP though, just solid.
Leaning Tower: I used to think this one was actually too strong, but I guess although it is universal you are probably still going to get most of your great people in a few core cities. Still, I think this is excellent for tall players and those going for a science or culture victory.
Sistene Chapel: no downsides really. Culture boost, and possibly the strongest theming bonus from a wonder apart from the Louvre (I know that's not a big deal but I like it).
Neuschwanstein: if this wonder was any earlier in the game I would say it is OP. Again I may be biased by playing big maps, but IMO that much happy is very significant for wide play.
Slater Mill: I value coal highly so to me this is also a strong wonder.

Wonders I think could be stronger
Macchu Picchu: Particularly as it has fairly specific requirements I think this wonder can afford to be stronger. Sure, it's really good if you are say the Inca and have a million mountains around you but feels a bit niche tbh.

Collosus: Idk, perhaps I'm overlooking this one because I almost never build it. A free trade route is always strong, but Petra offers that too. I guess I feel this could use just a little more. Great if you are Portugal, Morrocco or someone like that I guess.

tothePAIN · May 30, 2020

#1 wonder, by far for a warmonger (and I'm really glad that the game has it), is Terracotta Army. Getting Terracotta Army can make or break a warmonger game. If I'm a warmonger and I make it out of ancient and classical eras with only one wonder, I'm in a good spot if its Terracotta Army. Tough otherwise.

AndreyK · May 30, 2020

Terracotta Army looks much too strong, may be it deserve a slight nerf

JamesNinelives · May 30, 2020

AndreyK said:
Terracotta Army looks much too strong, may be it deserve a slight nerf

That's interesting to hear. I used to really love it but I haven't used the new one much (perhaps because I tend to play more passively).

tothePAIN · Jun 2, 2020

Terracotta Army probably has the greatest variance in terms of its power. It's really, really good for a warmonger. But it's not consistent.

On the current patch, some games work as a warmonger if I get Terracotta Army. They're much tougher otherwise.

Is it stronger than the Hanging Gardens or the Great Library? In some cases, yes, in other cases no.

AndreyK · Jun 2, 2020

It gives culture for killing units approximately 2.6-2.8 times more than Authority opener

pineappledan · Jun 15, 2020

Yup. Just finished a game where I built Terracotta. It's too good.

I would reduce it to 15 :c5culture:

per kill

Wonder Review

Stalker0

Baller Magnus

Omen of Peace

Prince

Drakle

Emperor

SuperNoobCamper

King

phantomaxl1207

King

Drakle

Emperor

JamesNinelives

Emperor

tothePAIN

King

AndreyK

King

JamesNinelives

Emperor

tothePAIN

King

AndreyK

King

pineappledan

Deity

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