Wondering about Wonders!

[GoodSarmatian]

I did assume it would effect border expansion. Do you know this for sure? or will we need to wait to play the game and find out?

I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing. I think they would have said "in every city" and not "empire wide" if they meant otherwise. Plus eight culture in every city would seem very unbalanced to me, but I could be wrong.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing. I think they would have said "in every city" and not "empire wide" if they meant otherwise. Plus eight culture in every city would seem very unbalanced to me, but I could be wrong.

I agree it's hard to tell at this point. We definitely know that there is at least one aspect of culture which is empire-wide (the earning of SP points), so I think most people assume that the other aspect (border expansion) is also empire-wide, but it could be local, for all we know, which would certainly make some sense. In fact, I think it might be better for game balance if culture for border popping were generated locally, but I don't know if that's going to be the case.

 

[ShaqFu]

I'd really like to know if any of the Wonders obsolete. If not, it'll be a tough call for cultural games between a Writing->TGL->Civil Service slingshot (for the huge tech/growth/military boost) or Calendar->Stonehenge. If you can put together Stonehenge by turn 150, and plan on winning by turn 400, that's 250*8=2000 culture from one building before bonuses. Remember that Stonehenge provides +8 base culture, so with multipliers (Hermitage/Broadcast Tower/Sistine Chapel), that +8 can turn into 8*3.33~=+25/turn. Not bad for a bunch of rocks, and way more than anything else can provide for raw base culture.

 

[DalekDavros]

I doubt that Wonders will obsolete. JS said he wanted players focused on "what new things they're getting" instead of what they'll have to give up. Obsoleting wonders wouldn't fit the whole Art Deco "things are getting better" theme.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

I'd really like to know if any of the Wonders obsolete. If not, it'll be a tough call for cultural games between a Writing->TGL->Civil Service slingshot (for the huge tech/growth/military boost) or Calendar->Stonehenge.

I question the value of beelining for Civil Service.

Does it provide a tech boost? Sure, but it also requires researching a 3rd level tech too early - before you really have the beaker capacity, meaning you will hit a pretty large dead spot of zero tech advancement along the way while other civs are quickly picking up useful lower level techs like Mining and Archery. It provides a beaker boost relative to what you'd get pursuing another strategy, but because of the aforementioned effect, it actually sets the civ back in tech for a little while.

Does it provide a growth boost? Yes, but only to cities built next to rivers with improved farms along said rivers and only after a long (at that point in the game) research process to get to Philosophy. If you've only got one city you're planning on putting next to a river, the bonus here is pretty dubious. If you're surrounded by rivers, this strategy becomes much stronger.

Does it provide a military boost? Again yes, but it is a boost that is very difficult to leverage, as pikemen are a primarily defensive unit and pursuing this beeline will likely leave the civ in question with quite mediocre production at the time it gets pikemen. Pikemen are very unlikely to be useful as an offensive unit by the time the beelining civ can actually put them into the field en masse. A pikeman does less damage and costs more than a swordsman - it's only real value is in repelling horsemen.

This beeline may be effective against the AI, but I think it's going to be quite suboptimal against humans and really only a good strategy if you start next to Russia or Greece (and are therefore worried about an early horseman rush) in an area with lots of rivers.

 

[pi-r8]

"Oh, and what if you were Russia and had the Krepost which gives you +50% cultural border expansion! It would mean you get border expansions for 12.5% of the original cost!"

This miscalculates how Civ does cumulative bonuses. It should be 1/(1 + .75 + .5) = 1/2.25 = 44% of the original cost. The more cumulative bonuses you get, the less overall effect you get.

 

[Wuddel]

We just discussed in a separate thread if wonders will obsolete. Apparently they will - according the the strategy guide. The Colossus after Navigation. So we will have to wait and see, and factor that in.

 

[bhavv]

Ok, in the civilopedia, the only wonder that I can see that obsoletes is colossus at navigation.

And it only affects the city it is built in!!! Its the single worst wonder in the game and not north wasting time on.