Wonders in the ancient age

[Hawkster]

Many people complain about the AI beating them to wonders in the ancient age - but in reality you do not need them ,unless you are aiming for a cultural victory especially of the 20K one city variety. In fact spending time and shields on wonders can be a hinderance rather than a help and yes I was guilty of this when I first started playing civ 3. Here are my thoughts on why wonders in the ancient age are not required.


1.Colossus (+1 commerce in a square producing commerce in the city built), cost=200 shields

seems like a good deal until you realise that 200 shields=20 workers who can build roads all over your empire so producing much more commerce then the Colossus does. Workers give you power and it is a common failing to build too few.

2.Great Wall (doubles effect of city walls and inc combat values vs barbarians) cost=200 shields

who builds walls in cities - honestly? Better build defenders and other units - attack being the best form of defense. A waste of 200 shileds.

3&4 .Oracle (doubles effect of temples) 300 shileds
Hanging Gardens (3 content citizens in city , 1 in all other cities) 300 shileds

hapiness wonders - but getting extra luxuries on line (with all those extra workers and units from above) will have a better effect especially once marketplaces are built. Luxuries do not expire like wonders. Plus with the extra commerce from the 20+ workers from not building colossus you can trade for luxuries as well.

5.Lighthouse (+1 ship movment,galleys can sail over sea tiles) 300 shields

ok this is useful on archipeligo maps but other than that it is not, 300 shields= 10 galleys for exploring or using on suicide runs - which is better?

6.Great Library (gives any advance known to 2 other civs) 400 shields

up to regent levvel it is possible to out research the ai so it is not required, plus with careful trading it is possible to get techs anyway. The expiry with education oftens comes too early to make the GL really useful. When all else fails pointy stick diplomacy will get the techs needed.

7.Pyramids (granary in every city on continent) 400 shields

probably the most aimed for wonder (along with Grt Library) - but not required. Do you need a granary in every city? No - only in those cities which will be churning out settlers (and / or workers) otherwise you just hit the 6 population limit sooner, by only building granaries in specified cities you prevent runaway growth and free up 400 shileds for other building (think 40 warriors or 20 archers to go visit your near neighbours).

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

Indeed. Wonders are highly overvalued by many newer players. It's much more important to invest those shields in expansion, not a wonder.

 

[Blackluck]

While all this is true, it's still fun building them.
So I do.


(I play on Monarch, a level that's comfortable and fun.)

 

[budweiser]

Its true I often do not build many wonders. But I wish I could. I am just too nervous about missing out on expansion. I mostly play on Emporer, and I think there IS room to get one ot two wonders early. The problem would then be making up for lost expansion time. This is probably where an early GA and an early UU come in. Take a civ with an early UU and you could probably get a wonder or two, a GA, a war and some more land.That would be more work and more risk, but hey - its just a game.

 

[JustBen]

I agree with your thesis -- many players overvalue the Great Wonders. You have forgotten, however, the most important sacrifice you make when building a GW -- the Forbidden Palace! When you leader-rush a wonder, deciding whether to grab the Hanging Gardens from an unsuspecting AI or to finish the FP 40 turns early is a choice most new players don't even realize they have.

That said, I would like to mention that the benefit you can gain from the Great Library is pretty huge on the high difficulty levels. Maybe not game-breaking, but surely it's at least as good as popping a Settler from your first goody hut.

And yes, I do want a Granary in all my cities. Maybe not before Aqueducts, and probably not via the high-priced Pyramids, but eventually I will. Population is power.

 

[zerksees]

Here are my comments

Wonders in the ancient age
I cannot agree completely that you do not need them. I think it is possible to win without them but it is harder. Your style of play or game setup preferences lends themselves to a greater or lesser benefit for each wonder.
There are so many wonders that you should be able to get your share (not all and not always your first choice) by wisely managing your shields. I think my main point is to not waste the shields because another civ beats you to a wonder – always have one or two others to switch to so the shields are not wasted.
I believe “need” is situational, depending on map size, map type, game difficulty, and starting position.
Wonders are also great way to capitalize on great leaders. No shields required if you have a great leader. What is better – granaries in all your cities or an army of swordsmen?
1.Colossus (+1 commerce in a square producing commerce in the city built), cost=200 shields

Your thoughts here are good, but assume that the nearby lands can support enough population growth to build 20 workers. This wonder really helped me keep up in ancient times science in my first emperor victory. Necessary – no, helpful – yes. I agree that “Workers give you power and it is a common failing to build too few”, but one worker factory city on proper land tiles can give you the 1 or 2 workers per city that you need.

2.Great Wall (doubles effect of city walls and inc combat values vs barbarians) cost=200 shields

Who builds walls in cities - honestly? I do. As a militaristic civ they are cheap, and allow me to keep fewer or older units in border cities. I do not build them all the time but with an aggressive neighbor they are useful.
In general I do agree that this is a waste of shields unless you just lost the race to build another wonder, or have a great leader to use.
3&4 .Oracle (doubles effect of temples) 300 shileds
Hanging Gardens (3 content citizens in city , 1 in all other cities) 300 shileds

I generally do not build these either, though if I get a bad map with few luxury resources available, these wonders would be good to fill the gap until I can acquire more luxuries during wars.

5.Lighthouse (+1 ship movment,galleys can sail over sea tiles) 300 shields

Agreed, but it is also handy on continents – and it allows your ships to escape other ships of same type if needed.

6.Great Library (gives any advance known to 2 other civs) 400 shields

Your points about out researching AI or getting by with trading are good, but not the only way. This is an awesome wonder. You can have all the ancient techs and a few of the middle age techs with 3 techs (alphabet, writing and literature) and 400 shields. Set science to 0 and stack up cash. Make a beeline for it on the tech tree, pre-build palace and switch to it. At my current skill level I live by this wonder on deity.
It is especially awesome if you conquer it later in the game (before you have education), as it will give you all the techs you do not have that two other civs have, often way past education.
7.Pyramids (granary in every city on continent) 400 shields

I agree that typically this is not needed. But some of us build cities on rivers so aqueducts are not needed. If I have a core of 7 cities and build granary in each one I spend 420 shields anyway. Why not focus and put them in all the cities. Speeding population growth does make it easier to build more workers and settlers. Of course it loses value on archipelago since you will not get the benefit in a large number or cities.

 

[Woody]

You are forgetting one of the big benifits of building wonders, you get culture points from them.

1.Colossus 3 per turn

2.Great Wall 2 per turn

3. Oracle 4 per turn

4. Hanging Gardens 4 per turn

5.Lighthouse 2 per turn

6.Great Library 6 per turn

7. Pyramids 4 per turn

If your going for a culture win those points add up over time.

 

[apparition]

I must dissagree also.

Colossus - not very useful, I'll agree.

Great Wall - increases you unit's strength against barbs also. In my current game I'm making loads of money destroying barb camps with left-over old units.

Oracle - happyness saves money. I need to use the tax slider less and I have less need to use entertainers. Anarchy between govs is also shorter.

Hanging Gardens - same as above except it lasts longer and you don't need to keep building temples.

Lighthouse - Post 6 had that right. Out running the same unit the has more health and a higher rank is very useful.

Great Library - I build this for one reason. To deny it to others.

Pyramids - Free granaries = Freed up goldand easier expansion.

 

[Plug]

I agree with Zerksees about the Great Library, it can be a lifesaver on Deity.

That's because the AI always researches Literature later than many other techs and so it is the one wonder you really have a chance with on Deity, even if you do not prebuild it you can get it in your capital.

I love the Library and recommend it to anyone on higher level modes.

Note: It' still not necessary however, since you could still trade for most techs. But it does get those hard to trade for techs like Monarchy and Republic and also lets you save up your cash.

 

[JustBen]

Another very interesting point I read somewhere on this board is that if you're planning on moving up a difficult level soon, you should probably not build the Great Library at your current, comfortable level. It can get you a little too accustomed to having more money around than you may be able to count on when you try to "promote" yourself. Interesting words to consider -- regardless of what you think about any of the great wonders, when you increase the difficulty level you can definitely plan on seeing fewer of them.

 

[Hawkster]

The point I was making was that wonders are not necessary - too many players rely on them instead of considering alternatives. I sometimes build wonders myself (usually GL rather than any others).

Perhaps the point is to keep in mind the follwing question

'can I get the same benefit from not building a wonder'

there is nothing worse than trying for and failing to get a wonder due to a wonder cascade amongst the AI's and having 200+ shields built up with nothing to use them on.

@woody - yes I know about the culture - thats why I did say in the original post that you do not need them unless you want a cultural victory.


It stems from my experience where I used to try and build wonders then realised that there are other methods which yield the same or sometimes better benefits.

 

[DS_Legionary]

I agree with you in general. Most of the Ancient Age wonders are useless. Except the GL, but that is only useful in Emperor and Diety IMO. The only one I will generally try for in the Anceitn Ages is the Hanging Gardens, and only if I don't have more than two luxuries.

 

[Jurimax]

Indeed, most of the ancient wonders are 'not needed', but another way of looking at things might be: "If I don't build this or that wonder, the AI will build it and reap its benefits"

I don't know if this is valid for the higher difficulty levels (as someone already mentioned it's difficult to get wonders) but it could be an argument in favor of wonder building.

And with the new wonders of C3C we get a whole new set of ancient wonders: Statue of Zeus (free ancient cav every 5 turns), Temple of Artemis (free temples), ...

In my games (mostly ICS) I always try to build the Pyramids and if I aim for a cultural victory, I try to get as many of them as possible.

Greetings Jurimax

 

[Plug]

Although you can build Granaries in every city the Pyramids does have some great advantages over that path:

1. You have Granaries in a city as soon as you construct it, meaning no waiting to build one, faster pop growth.

2. Granaries cost maintenance, the Pyramids don't. Have you considered how much maintenance gold can be saved by having Wonders such as the Pyramids or Tsung Tsu's Art of War. The larger the map size the more money you are likely to save.

3. The Pyramid, and other Wonders, boost your culture and I don't think this necessary ONLY if you are going for a cultural victory. It is best to cultivate your culture no matter what type of game you are playing (I make an exception for super fast military victory). This cultural aspect applies to all Wonders, esp. of the Ancient Age, where they are more likely to double after a 1000 years.

 

[Phil77]

If you're in a continent by yourself, or with only one or two other Civs, building the Great Lighthouse may be a matter of life or death.

 

[apparition]

I use culture as a hostile tactic without going for cultural victory by using cultural borders as part of an invasion. With a free, instant granary you get the library or temple that much faster.

Pyramids are vital in my opinion.