Workers: better left un-automated?

[Derf]

I've discovered that since adepts have to improve mana nodes and workers seem to be incapable of understanding 'leave that node alone damn you I'm trying to use it', by the time windmills are available it's actually better to micro-manage the workers and take full control.

It's not just the mana nodes that's a problem either, whatever AI controls automated workers seems to be a bit dense in what it chooses to be 'good' for a city, and in some cases just doesn't understand what it has to do.

For example, a city I built to take advantage of one of the few remaining unclaimed mana nodes so I could get death mana, only had four hills around, and one plains with no access to water. Forests covered three of the four hills.
It decided a windmill on the node was the only thing it could do, completely ignoring the idea of chopping down a few trees to construct the windmill somewhere else.
Then when I took one and cut down one of the hill-forests, they still insisted the node was the only place, and wouldn't do anything until I took control.

Okay, so that's more of a rant really. But the base question remains, is it actually better to manage workers (or mud golems) yourself, or leave them automated and occasionally getting in the way?

 

[Tarquelne]

Okay, so that's more of a rant really. But the base question remains, is it actually better to manage workers (or mud golems) yourself, or leave them automated and occasionally getting in the way?

Here's my rule-of-thumb on the subject: If the game is such that you can afford not micro-managing the workers yourself, then either the difficulty level isn't high enough and/or you've won. So quit and start another game.

 

[Derf]

It's a habit from vanilla Civ4 I got into actually. They aren't as dense there, but there isn't really anything all that special there to give them any trouble.
It's only recently I started playing FFH and it sunk it's hooks into me, so I'm still working my way around these things.

 

[Azhral]

I manually control all workers until I get bored of ordering them around (usually comes when core cities are fully improved anyways). Then I stick them on Automate trade routes, and they will build roads everywhere and hook up resources while leaving all other improvements alone.

 

[tylor]

I was struggling even with Noble in vanilla civ, until I started to control workers and citizens manually. But yes, it's boring.

I pray there would be a possibility to assign what to build in which tile and let AI micromanage which workers will do the work.

 

[Derf]

That's got me thinking.
Couldn't that be implemented as a kind of set of 'If this, then that' rules? Such as, if the terrain is hills, there is no resource here and there are few flatlands around, then build a windmill
Though I imagine something like that could cause terrible slowdown if it's called for every worker.

 

[tylor]

Is it possible to ax workers at all?

Everything except food can be made by specialists anyway. Just make their quantity limits higher.

So, each tile inside cultural orders is treated as having a road, a mine/windmill hybrid if it is a hill, a town/farm/workshop hybrid if it is flat. Exact bonuses can be dependent more on policies/races whatever, and can grow by time as tile is worked, like it is for town. Or even drop in some cases - mines are not bottomless, you know.

Major terraforming is done with arcane/divine guys, like as now.

 

[deanej]

That's got me thinking.
Couldn't that be implemented as a kind of set of 'If this, then that' rules? Such as, if the terrain is hills, there is no resource here and there are few flatlands around, then build a windmill
Though I imagine something like that could cause terrible slowdown if it's called for every worker.

That's essentially what the AI is. Problem is, if-then rules can never approach what a human would do because there are too many variables and exceptions.

 

[Morkonan]

FFH2 Workers just don't seem to work well automated. Sometimes, they'll work fine.. only to go bugnuts crazy later in the game for no apparent reason. I don't know what triggers it, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the owning civ. Maybe another civ's tech advances corrupt their AI at some point? Who knows? ..

So, being generally an automated-worker type of guy, I had to force myself to micro-manage them. In the early game, that's best anyway. Tagging their options with "Does not replace previously built improvements" (or whatever it is) seems to help when you have them automated. But, it doesn't help on all types of improvements, especially those dealing with trade resources. They'll get stuck on rebuilding nonsensical trade-resource improvements forever.. or run around doing similarly dumb things with others.

I sort of "test" the AI at different stages and keep an eye on it. If the workers are doing fine once I've automated them, I'll leave them be for awhile and check to see how they're doing several turns later. At some point, I always have to micro them, though.

I've noticed that the RiFE mod tends to correct this problem, somewhat. But, it's not foolproof and they can still go nuts. I have not played patch "o" for vanilla FFH2 yet, so can't comment on if it has improved the worker AI.

One thing that is pretty clear, if you expand into new territory or get a city to flip through conquest or culture, they'll rush over to start working on it... usually. The problem is, none of them seem to be on the same gameplan most of the time and they'll start mucking up the new territory fairly quickly. I guess the foreman is off to lunch...

 

[Tasunke]

Yea ... once my core empire is completely done (say top 3-5 cities if a standard sized map) then I generally stop caring ....

The only exception is MP against a particularly economic oriented opponent.

Otherwise ... I just use my core to produce an army that will out-maneuver and out-level my opponents. (if all goes well)


Of course, in a really bloody war ... one doesn't always have time for leveling. Which is why cavalry is so nice ... to give your units extra "lives." (in the forms of withdrawing and retreating)

 

[Morkonan]

Of course, in a really bloody war ... one doesn't often have time for leveling. Which is why cavalry is so nice ... to give your units extra "lives." (in the forms of withdrawing and retreating)

/agree

In a bloody war, with the chance of SoD's, I will be sure to give my mounted units flanking/withdrawal promotions. Generally, I get those as high as possible. Then, they become extra-heavy artillery type units, capable of softening up just about anything I run across.

 

[Derf]

One thing that is pretty clear, if you expand into new territory or get a city to flip through conquest or culture, they'll rush over to start working on it... usually. The problem is, none of them seem to be on the same gameplan most of the time and they'll start mucking up the new territory fairly quickly. I guess the foreman is off to lunch...

Rushing to improve them doesn't necessarily always happen. Several times they've completely ignored a new colony, usually because they can't seem to figure out how to improve it.
I thought I'd experiment a bit with them and so far it seems that workers under Ljosofar or Svartlfar are a bit more intelligent, but that may just be because they're forbidden to cut down the trees. Illian workers seem to be just behind them, though I haven't figured out why yet.
Rather oddly, I've found that the Mud Golems seem to do worse and need more management than workers.

 

[Morkonan]

Rushing to improve them doesn't necessarily always happen. Several times they've completely ignored a new colony, usually because they can't seem to figure out how to improve it...

True, they don't always rush off to do their jobs. I've caught many of them slacking off, camped out in cities, watching the carnivals or something, when they're desperately needed elsewhere. It doesn't seem to be just an efficiency thing, either. I've killed them all of except for one and he'd still prefer to sit in a city rather than go improve new territory.

As a rule of thumb, I develop my first few cities by hand then automate them as long as I'm not too far up the tech tree. Then, I wait for them to start borking up before I switch to micromanaging them. Sometimes, I'll leave a few automated in hopes they'll straighten up, eventually. But, when I start losing trade resources because they're stuck on a repeated rebuild cycle over a resource, I get a bit ticked off...

 

[Selrahc]

Okay, so that's more of a rant really. But the base question remains, is it actually better to manage workers (or mud golems) yourself, or leave them automated and occasionally getting in the way?

The only time you should automate workers is when there is nothing important left for them to do. That is true in original civ IV as well as FFH. Manually controlling workers gets your tiles improved in the order you want them, with the improvements you want which vastly improves the speed at which your economy builds up. Even if you don't have a clue about worker management you will still almost definitely do a better job than an automated AI.

Even if you have nothing important left for your workers to do, make sure that they are not allowed to build over your old improvements, or chop down forests or they'll end up doing more harm than good.

The feature is useful, because it lets you ignore workers in the final stages of the game when you are busy crushing empires. Try not to rely on it for anything else.