workforce instead of shields

[rhialto]

How about once you get certain city improvements, you can start having 'factory drone' city specialists who increase shield production? This could be expanded to scientists, taxmen and entertainers too. For example...

Marketplace allows you to have 1 taxman, bank allows 2 more (total 3), stock exchange allows 3 more (total 6).

Library allows you to have 1 scientist, university allows 2 more (total 3), research lab allows 3 more (total 6).

theatre allows you to have 1 entertainer, cinema allows 2 more (total 3), VR centre 3 more (total 6).

Workshop allows you to have 1 factory drone, factory allows 2 more (total 3), manufacturing plant 3 more (total 6).

This also makes these improvements more critical. A citizen who cannot find work (either in the tiles or the buildings) is essentially unemployed, and is automatically unhappy.

 

[Trade-peror]

These "drones," introducing worker specialization and employment considerations, are very interesting ideas.

However, would they be automatically assigned? If so, how would that automation be programmed to prevent the player from going back and micromanaging anyway, due to automation inadequacy? I consider the risk of more micromanagement as the real constraint that prevents many in-depth features from being added to Civ's already appalling micromanagement workload.

 

[rhialto]

istr that CTP (1 or 2, cant remember which) had various buttons to automatically place your city specialists according to which resource you want to optimize.

Actually, I'd go a step further than that anyway. Ordinary 'tile workers' shouldn't be player-controlled. Instead, they produce an averaged amount for the developed (and undeveloped) tiles in the city area. This reduces player management to a question of which and how many specialists to have.

If we then also bring back the carry-over production (for queued projects only), carry-over science, etc, that should eliminate the reasons for MM of citizens in the first place.

 

[eddie_verdde]

nebuchadnezzar, I could be wrong but you seem to forget that shields essentially represent raw materials, that's why forests yield more shields (wood) than a grassland and that's why mountains yield more shields (stone, minerals) than plains. This is why I understand the shield production concept of CIV.

However I understand your frustration when you have a city surrounded by flood plains and the shield output is very low despite the large population level...as if egyptians weren't able to build things quickly just because their land lacked forests and plains and mountains...

I think the main problem with floodplains in CIV3 is that deserts and floodplains are underestimated in terms of shield output, everyone knows that deserts can be very rich in raw materials, especially stone.

Maybe the shield output should depend not only on the type of terrains surrounding the city but also on the population level of the city - for instance, large cities could produce one extra shield per square.

To sum up, the classical concept of shield output ignores the fact that different communities explore different resources depending on their environments and on their needs...in other words, different civilizations came across with different solutions to the same problems. Maybe egyptians lacked wood, because they lived in desert areas...but they were able to build things using other materials, such as clay (houses) or reeds (small boats). So, by classical standards a floodplain would be poor in "shields" but for egyptians, floodplains were as rich in "shields" as a forest for romans.

 

[sir_schwick]

What if non-essential techs could increase the output of various terrain types? If you lived in a desert, you would research 'mud bricks'(avaliable with Pottery), which woudl increase shield output per desert tile. If you had lots of forests around, you could research 'lumberjacking' to get a shield bonus from them. That way you chose what to research based on need.

 

[mitsho]

Maybe the shield output should depend not only on the type of terrains surrounding the city but also on the population level of the city - for instance, large cities could produce one extra shield per square.

Well, you yourself wrote the solution down, just a bit vague. If we write it out we get the solution written down a bit upwards in this thread.

(namely: production (shields) a city produces results from: tile factors (shields of the tiles worked), population factor (how many citizens a city has), infrastructure factor (what is built) and/or technology factor (what has the civ researched), civ-trait factor and corruption factor. Many of these factors would just be a percent number while just the first one is actually a shield number.
Example: A city produces 12 shields, it has 6 population, a palace, a library, a temple and a mill, the civ is just at the beginning of the middle ages (hence the mill ) and is industrial.
So it goes: 12 shields x ( 1 [100 %] + 0.15 [115% pop (5% for 2 pop)] + 0.25 [mill] + 0.05 [library] + 0.20 [middle ages] + 0.33 [industrial] and / 1.2 [corruption in capital] = 19.8 . This city produces 20 shields.
REMARK: This is an example. The numbers cannot be taken litterally. They belong to the fine tuning, and this doesn't need to be done by me right here and now.

To sum up, the classical concept of shield output ignores the fact that different communities explore different resources depending on their environments and on their needs...in other words, different civilizations came across with different solutions to the same problems. Maybe egyptians lacked wood, because they lived in desert areas...but they were able to build things using other materials, such as clay (houses) or reeds (small boats). So, by classical standards a floodplain would be poor in "shields" but for egyptians, floodplains were as rich in "shields" as a forest for romans.

right way of thinking, but I don't agree with the concept that civs should get specialities this way. What if the Egyptians are born into a forest rich northern coast (in a civ-game) and the Romans end up on a large river with floodplains? There you have the old situation. So, no thanks

mfG mitsho

 

[eddie_verdde]

sir_schwick that would be a breaktrough in the game, to say the least...it would turn the game even more realistic and would present the civers with an interesting and flourishing tech tree...each civ would find a specific path to reach the same goals.

this would emphasize even more the idiosyncrasies of each civilization and culture.

I love it. I will post this in my thread: "new concepts".


Mitsho, starting the game with russians near a jungle sounds familiar to you? what about starting with the zulu near the north pole? that's civ!!!!! The maps are random, and the starting locations are pretty much random too...think about it...

 

[sir_schwick]

mitsho, combine my idea for how to add bonuses to terrain, and your idea for how to make infrastructure important, and you have a winner

 

[mitsho]

@eddie_verde read my post closer, I never said this is not good. I just said that you gave bonusses to the Egyptians because in real life they started 'in the desert'. However that's not good. It'd be better to give this bonus ('clay-working or whatever you call it') to the one that starts in the desert, and not to the Egyptians who might be placed near the north pole this time. That's all I said. And because I don't approve of changing 'traits' with different maps/games, I don't approve this idea.

@Sir_Schwick, Well, ok.

mfG mitsho

 

[eddie_verdde]

Maybe I and sir_schwick weren't clear enough...Egyptians wouldn't have necessarily to choose "clay-working"...there would be some optional technologies that each civilization could decide to choose or not to choose to develop, according to their starting locations, surrounding terrain, etc AND regardless of the civilization. For instance you choose to play with russians but your starting location is near a tropical forest (could happen), so it might be a good idea to research something like "lumberjacking" or "cure for malaria" in order to keep your population healthy and productive....or maybe you choose to play with germans but your starting location is a small island...maybe you should invest on seafaring instead of agriculture for instance....

What I mean is: in CIV3 all civilizations choose a very similar technological path...and I guess it would be more interesting to see different strategies depending on the starting conditions which would lead to very specific and unusual cultures and civs...in human history it was the different environmental conditions that drove the evolution of so many different cultures....

 

[mitsho]

So, by classical standards a floodplain would be poor in "shields" but for egyptians, floodplains were as rich in "shields" as a forest for romans.[/B]

@eddie_verdde, this sentence says something completely different than your last post. So, you weren't 'clear enough', you simply wrote something different than you thought.

Now, with the idea in your last post, I am completely ok with.

mfG mitsho

 

[rhialto]

There ouught to be some restrictions with these booster techs. Say you start in a flood plain. You naturally research mud bricks for teh industrial bonus. But it should then be harder for you to reseasch advance lumber techniques for an extra forest bonus. Perhaps these techs could be restricted based on what terrain is in range of your capital?

 

[sir_schwick]

No at all, researching extra techs in the Ancient Era was a real slow down. It would be a question of economy, just like in any system. If lumberjacking and mudbricks gives you a big advantage compared to research time/cost, then you do it. If not, you wasted time/money.