World History Mod Conversation

[Fullerene]

Been still thinking about trade system for WHM.

Lib.Spi't suggested that there would be some kind of trade centers in certain areas of the map. In these trade centers you have access to trade screens.
Well I think I can learn to live with that idea, but I'd like to it be more non static.

So I came up with idea that goes like this:

We divide the map in logical trade areas: For example: Europe, Africa, Middle East, Asia, Siberia,Oceania, South America, North America. Of course the bigger the map is the more areas there should be. Or one solution would be to write algorithm that automatically creates the areas depending on natural obstacles like seas, mountains ranges, rivers, deserts etc.
Every trade area has it's own trade screen.

Anyway, now that we have the trade areas defined we can drop the trade screen access plots into the map. My proposal is that every trade area has only 1 city that has access to the trade screen. I call that city "a hegemonic city". It is the city with highest culture within the area.

I think it would be better for the game play that the trade screen access points may change positions. For example: You play as Rome and the English who are your worst enemies gets the Hegemonic City. If they refuse to open borders with you, you have to go to other parts of the world to seek better trading opportunities. Or take the English city by force!

I think this idea makes sense and isn't too hard to implement either.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I quite like that idea too, this could be similar to Europa Universalis, where traders go to 'Trade Hubs' and then try to take the largest percentage share of that Hub that they can.

The idea of there being a Hegemonic or Trade Hub City that has the highest X points, is quite cool. This could link in really nicely with the market building in the city, with traders generating trade points and the highest points wins the title.

It could even be a combo yield with trade/law/admin etc.

Interesting, it could simulate economic warfare.

I wonder if conquering the H city would mean that it would quickly lose its status and bounce to another because of the conquest damage...

As for the 'divisions of market' my plans had always been to have the 'continent tile sets' that produce the different continent specific trade substances.

If I remember rightly I had:

Europe
Asia
Africa
America

(I think that was it)

So those continent types would help to make trade areas, then we could perhaps add some sub divisions as wel, using the methods you describe or longitude/latitude markers, so you have a North/South or East/West divide for each continent.

I wonder if we could have something like the ability to nominate a 'Hegemonic Contender City' in each Trade Zone.

Then every city in that HCC plotgroup that is yours or foreign or both or whatever could contribute pointss or bonuses to the cities trade strength, that would make greater development or colonisation of a continent have an impact on your 'bid' to become the Trade Holder.

 

[Fullerene]

It could even be a combo yield with trade/law/admin etc.

Hmmm... if trade points are counted towards hegemonic city points, then first city to have trade screen established will likely run away with many points and that city can never be caught by contender cities. That's why I think something like culture is better choice for the purpose.


---

And some random ideas for military Civics:

• Warrior class: Luxury food provides veteran soldiers. Only veteran soldiers can wear military professions.
• Professional Army: Military units train faster, but they cost more gold to maintain
• Conscription : All units have some free promotions. Maintanance is expensive. Used in big wars during Industrial/Modern era

 

[Lib.Spi't]

No I meant a new yield, by trade points I meant a yield of some sort made by traders working in markets.

and turned into a combo yield that includes admin/law (when they are added to M:C system) as well as combined with some sort of plotgroup pooling or benefit, then that would make developing city groups improtant in order to dominate a trade zone and claim the trade hub. (can can also make other buildings contribute to production like having ports and such.)

I think you have Professional Army and Conscription mixed up in terms of effect.

Conscription gets you faster made troops with less experience, a Pro Army gets you more experience but less troops(or more expensive as they are employed year round/life time).

 

[Lib.Spi't]

We could also make the effect as a rate rather than a pool. (like how Rebel Sentiment in a city works, it calculates by what you make each turn, rather than by collecting everything you have ever made)

This would make it that either every turn or every so often, someone could over take the current leader in the Trade Zone.

Past actions don't contribute to future success.

 

[Nightinggale]

I suspect all this could be coded within a reasonable amount of time. However I think there is a balance issue. If just one player has a trade screen, being attacked by that player totally sucks because you will lose your access to buy reinforcements and other important stuff. I think it would make more sense if there would be at least 2, possibly 3 access cities and those cities aren't allowed to be on the same team, be allied or have a defensive pact. That way it will not be possible to monopolize a trade screen. It will be possible to get stuck without access, but at least it will not give an unfair advantage to a single supreme player.

The more I think about this, the harder it is to figure out how to get this well balanced.

 

[Fullerene]

I think you have Professional Army and Conscription mixed up in terms of effect.

Conscription gets you faster made troops with less experience, a Pro Army gets you more experience but less troops(or more expensive as they are employed year round/life time).

No, I meant that in Conscription all units have some basic promotions. And Pro Army gets experience faster, so they eventually have more promotions.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

@Night

We talked about adding 'sub continents' to the continental areas, so for example in Europe (which would in the first iteration be the player start area) there could/would be more than 1 city with a trade screen in say north/south/east/west Europe, or however many sub divisions make sense.

Then ass you explore the world you would get acess to more Trade Areas, then colonising and conquering these would give you the chance to win those too.

Also In tile sets I forget Middle Eastern.

So 5 continental areas.

 

[Fullerene]

I somewhat feel that M:C's current research system doesn't really fit to WHM as it is. I mean that inventors/scientists doing all research is just too simplified solution, especially for earlier eras. Because colonization is very detailed game, the research system should be detailed too.

First of all technologies should be grouped into different categories, for example: Agricultural/Engineering/Philosophical/Religious... etc.

Then for example farmers will produce Agricultural research, priests religious and miners and blacksmiths engineering. Etc.

Maybe finishing buildings could provide research points too. Some techs might require research from various categories and some just one specific.

This is very close to Founding Father point system, applied to tech tree, should not be very difficult to implement?

I just want to encourage "everything affects everything" game design philosophy, because I think that Colonization game engine and unit/resource system really works well with it.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I don't think we need to rebuild the research system, we already have (I think) the ability to:

Require Yields X to progress Research (so stone carving would need 1 stone per candle/beaker of research)
Require Specialist X to Research [To be present in a research shop. I think] (So Agriculture tools would require a Master Farmer)

I don't think this requires a whole new set of research trees..

There was discussion of having a system of secret special techs that can be unlocked by masters working in their profession. (Like a Master Weapon Smith making a special kind of sword, etc.)

 

[Nightinggale]

There was discussion of having a system of secret special techs that can be unlocked by masters working in their profession. (Like a Master Weapon Smith making a special kind of sword, etc.)

I don't remember anything about that, but it sounds like a good idea. I agree with the rest. Setting up unit (or unitclass?) and yield requirements can make research way more complex. For unknown reasons those features are implemented, but not activated in XML in M:C.

Expert farmers earning points when working as farmers
I kind of like this idea, but it wouldn't be an easy addon. The only thing I can think of right now is to set a unit to produce father points when working in certain professions. Then rather than techs, it can be used to unlock perks, which is the same as techs, except that they are researched with father points. Since FP types can be added in XML, it will be possible to add farmer pointer, miner points and so on.

I will not add unit/profession combos for FP production in the next release, but the rest is more or less ready. Perks can even handle drawing a tech tree, though we do not have a python file to actually do that (yet?).

Another interesting idea for an addon is to add perk requirements for techs and vice versa.

 

[Fullerene]

Not sure I was understood correctly. The ideas was more like that there would be more than one type of research yields but still only one tech tree.

Hmmm, but I guess FF points would do the same. To finish a tech, you would need research it and have enough FP catalogued. For example:For Construction you need X amount of research and Y amount of engineering points.

What would be difficulty of making professions producing FF points? Wouldn't it be just "few" lines of code basically? AI can just be happily ignorant of whole concept as it would produce the required points as side effect

I'm not discussing this has to be added now, but when the WHM development begins.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I think the current reason all those extra features are not active in M:C is that it just hasn't been added to everything yet, and the concept was not made originally for M:C, we just need to decide what and when to use them in the M:C tech tree.

This does actually sort of feed into an idea I talked about previously, which was replacing 'Founding Fathers' with 'National Identities/Ideologies'.

It would require a lot of thought, and maybe the removal of/change to 'National FFs' rather than 'World FFs' (Like with wonders in civ, everyone can have 1 copy of a National wonder, but only 1 civ can have a world wonder)

So this feeds into Night's statement about perks needed for techs. Certain National Identities (National FFs) would give access to certain Era Super Techs on that field of identity.

So Examples:
Agricultural Flood Specialists (Think Egypt) Unlocks an earlier tech that boosts flood plains or farms or irrigation or city size or what ever.

Sailing Specialists (think Pacific Islanders) some kind of special sailing boat tech.

Naval Gunners (think Britain) unlocks a tech like cannon forging(I forget if it was bronze or iron) but an english technique allowed them to produce cannons cheaper and faster (and possibly to a better standard but can't remember) so the special tech gives a special cannon foundry or whatever.

Things like this, so the Identity of your Nation feeds into the 'Weighting' of your decision making.

With OrRequirements for things, some of these 'Super Techs' could just unlock something earlier than the 'Normal' tech would.

 

[Nightinggale]

Not sure I was understood correctly. The ideas was more like that there would be more than one type of research yields but still only one tech tree.

A tech can set the required yields to produce a single YIELD_IDEA. This mean if we set it to lumber, each idea would consume a lumber, just like each tool consumes an ore. XML contains a list of yields to consume meaning it can be set to 5 different yields or none as it is in M:C.

There is one tech tree for perks and one for techs. However if they can set requirements from each other, then they can sort of be mixed. There has also been talk about making one tech tree for each tech category to make an easier overview. They would still technically still be a single tech tree.

Hmmm, but I guess FF points would do the same. To finish a tech, you would need research it and have enough FP catalogued. For example:For Construction you need X amount of research and Y amount of engineering points.

Sadly perks aren't designed to use research points. You either pick research points or FF points, not both. Though now that you mention it

What would be difficulty of making professions producing FF points? Wouldn't it be just "few" lines of code basically?

A few lines of code for XML, a few for production, a few for GUI and eventually it adds up. I have plenty of "small improvements", which would take a while to implement and I'm aiming at a release ASAP to get col2071 going. This mean right now I'm aiming at a bare minimum in order not to take forever.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Also, I did get your meaning Fullerene, I was just saying that it would mean making a whole lot of new additions/crossovers, etc. when the same/similar effect could be achieved with the current system.

So a farm tech requiring food would require a city with a lot of farmers making excess food for the research in that city. (I think it consumes resources locally to make a beaker). (Or the logistics to transport those goods).

Or it would require 1 Specialist in a research lab city to progress the tech.

Because really people 'working' doesn't really advance technology, it is the people who take time out to think about 'how' they are working that push tech forwards.

I like some of the general ideas behind it, I am just wondering if the income/outcome is worth it, from the idea of having all different 'costs' per tech.

Alternatively having something that runs along with the current/standard tech tree model that augments it or deepens it, rather than a fundamental shift towards the FF system...

(Although the trade perks system may already provide a lot of the needed work, I am just not sure if that is .dll hardcoded, or xml coded. Likely it would become xml coded anyway before things are finished.)

 

[Nightinggale]

Because really people 'working' doesn't really advance technology, it is the people who take time out to think about 'how' they are working that push tech forwards.

In that case you haven't seen me working on physical tasks. I'm like "this is hard work/poor work position" and then I figure out a way to do the task without breaking my back. Sometimes it's to increase efficiency and sometimes it's to avoid injury. Either way doing something gives insights, which can be used to come up with improvements.

Here is a video of a guy, who went to work with his father and thought it was too slow and came up with a solution to do the same work in less time.

Link to video.​

Field work/field tests will in fact provide new ideas and can be needed to invent stuff.

Alternatively having something that runs along with the current/standard tech tree model that augments it or deepens it, rather than a fundamental shift towards the FF system...

Somehow I don't like the FF system. It seems like it's a replacement for techs and now we have both. My plan is to extend CivEffects, but not really FFs. Instead an FF can be the only source to gain a certain CivEffect. I would be ok with a DLL, which can cope with not having any FFs at all and only rely on techs/perks, though currently there is no way to render a perk unresearchable if it's researched by another player. However this might show up in the future and the system to provide a free unit/whatever to the first to research mean we already have a function, which tells if any player (dead or alive) ever owned a tech or perk.

(Although the trade perks system may already provide a lot of the needed work, I am just not sure if that is .dll hardcoded, or xml coded. Likely it would become xml coded anyway before things are finished.)

I designed the perk system (as in the part, which is changed by CivEffects) and I intentionally tried to avoid hardcoding. The only hardcoding is that it only checks trade points, not the other FP, but that is a known issue and will be fixed at some point.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I think you missed what I was saying about workers making technology.

The point is your average worker just works. They don't think about ways to change it they just do the work.

Some may think, this is rubbish, they then spend time thinking about it (Doing Research) then they come up with the new thing.

Your 'Generally' not able to do both things at once. (otherwise 'generally' your probably not doing either properly or at full capacity).

So having a Specialist in the Research Shop is like him having all his 'on the job knowledge' but instead of him just working he is now taking time out to think about how he can do things 'better' the next time he does his job.

In your example, you do the job, go ouch!, Stop and think of a better way, invent the way, go back to job. But it is all done in a matter of minutes rather than months/years like say inventing the Printing Press or whatever.

That Invention was amazing! I want a BeeFlowHive!.

The point is though, that was one bee keeper, thinking can this be done better? Going away, thinking and coming back when he had his invention and going 'Yay it is better', then going 'Hey beekeepers we just invented Flow Hives, +1 Coin for Beekeepers!'

It wasn't all beekeepers providing X% of the Flow Hive Research, every time they did beekeeping.

Beekeeping and Innovating Beekeeping were two distinct tasks/jobs.

 

[Nightinggale]

The point is your average worker just works. They don't think about ways to change it they just do the work.

Some may think, this is rubbish, they then spend time thinking about it (Doing Research) then they come up with the new thing.

Your 'Generally' not able to do both things at once. (otherwise 'generally' your probably not doing either properly or at full capacity).

Isn't that why the tech/perk would require both farming points and something else. Doing the task, get an idea, research the idea and make field tests.

That Invention was amazing! I want a BeeFlowHive!.

That's kind of like the idea with that video. Still I would say go for it. We have too few bees, which is a huge problem for pollen spreading. Also it would be a great commercial value for them if they can say "so simple that even Lib.Spi't can figure out how to use it"

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Wow, I could so be their poster boy for Beekeeping for Dumbies!

I take your point with the Mix of tech points/work points. I just have this feeling that mixing in the FF points will get 'messy'...

I mean chances are it will balance itself out, if FPs are less than RPs per tech then while you are finishing the RP part, you will be filling up your FF bar...

I just have this 'feeling' that it will somehow be Counter Intuitive/Productive...

I mentioned it in the other thread, but it is like, if you research War, then War FFs will be harder to gain, because you are spending FPs on the War Research... But a societiy that is always Researching/Innovating War would be more likely to produce great War Thinkers (FFs)...

It's like... Activity(Workers Working) creates Innovators(The Workers that think there must be a better way (FFs)). Then Innovators drive Innovation(New Technologies).

The FP/RP system proposed to me seems to muddle it a bit.

Activity pays for Innovation(Tech) but paying for the Innovations make you less likely to get an Innovator...

Does that make sense?

 

[Fullerene]

Well, when would the M:C dll be ready for the WHM development to begin? Next release has all needed features?

I would suggest first to create mod for timeline around approx.750 B.C. to 1800 A.D. Because there already is enough Col graphics for that period. (Mare Nostrum, M:C and all the "normal" Col mods). Also we wouldn't need as many resources(yields) as full history.

Hmmm, one feature we need is to prevent pre-sail ships to cross oceans.

Really, would it be possible to start the XML development already? This is huge and big project but it might grow to really interesting mod.