Acken
Deity
Probably because Venice is weak. It's fun but their advantages are there only to fight their disadvantages so in a purely comparative mindset they are behind normal civs.
Worst Civ in the Game??
- Thread starter Fluphen Azine
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TheD3rp
Lowly Footsoldier
Venice=/=weak. In my opinion they are one of the strongest civs in the game. The ridiculous amount of trade routes you have make it so civs are far less likely to declare war on you, and with all the money you get from said trade routes, you can essentially rule the World Congress/UN.
For the challenge I had a go with the Iroquois, and ended up near the south pole in a tundra/forest region. But the game tries to balance start locations, and maybe for this reason such starts often give 3 or more deer tiles in workable range. They are awesome with the longhouse and a granary, and +food from camps pantheon. 5 food and 2 hammers each. Ended up with Great Library, Hanging Gardens, Pisa, Porcelain Tower. Yes workshops may be better from Industrial onward, but i was out of sight by this point
Yeah, but how is that really important for anything other than diplo VC? Sure, DV is easy with Venice, and maybe even Venice is stronger for DV than any other civ. But it still seems fair to me to characterize them as weak! I would love to be convinced they work work for other victory types.
Navelgazer
King
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Man, I'm a defender of Japan in this game (somewhat) and I'm still confounded by this. For one thing, the Samurai is an okay unit, and actually a bit less so in Japan's hands because their terrain bonuses don't fit the map that Japan needs for its UA very well. Furthermore, I don't know if you're playing on Hummingbird-Speed or what, but can you please explain your path through Mining, Bronze-Working, Iron-Working, either hard-building or upgrading to get your swordsman, and then hitting the right ruins reliably, by turn 30? I'd really like to be aware that I'm playing the game so poorly if this is even close to possible.
chuckh89
Prince
One of the most enjoyable parts of Civilization is unveiling the map, analyzing where you stand, and then settling cities to implement your strategy, and play to your strengths.
A majority of CSs are not in favorable locations (Ex. Science Victory-No mountain), and I feel most people like the freedom of deciding exactly where a to settle a city.
Reinforcement for this argument...I always use Enrico Dandalo as AI enemy Civ. (Unless it is Diplomacy Victory) for Gauntlets. He is great early game because he doesn't spawn cites, and many times Razing his puppeted city will unveil a great location to "Found" a city. Normally you can look at a CS and say "If that CS was "Founded" one space that way, or one space that way it would be a excellent conquest!" All you cities should be in "Prime" locations", your not getting that when you receive a CS for Puppeting"
Also,
To win a Diplomatic Victory on the first vote...You need every CS as your Ally! Do you get the same # of votes with a from a puppeted CS and a Allied CS.....I don't believe you do! So that is another disadvantage.
Also,
Bad for Domination Victory,....Or when fighting Warmongers! Your big advantage is trade routes, and when your Maxed Out...Wow, Awesome! Oh wait, DOW!! Plunder, plunder,...plunder,...plunder,.....Where did all my Cargo Ships go??? Oh, that was Harold Bluetooth sitting in your harbor, and now he has 1,000 gold because he intercepted 5 on your trade routes! Do you know how long it takes to rebuild 8 Cargo ships..??? Advantages that cannot be countered by enemy Civs are probably the best!
chuckh89
Prince
Yes, that is very optimistic...But possible! (And I was stating best case scenerio) I should have added a few turns for your swordsman to walk to the ruin, and (Of Course!) you have to get "Lucky" that it is a "Free Upgrade" Ruin.
Not Possible on Deity IMHO, BUT...
GL select Iron Working , Hopefully a free quality free tech. from Ruins (Writing, Bronze working) , then buy Swordsman with gold or upgrade Warrior.
Late game building fishing boats is only a couple turns, and it is really not a very big advantage. BUT,...Early Game! Ex. You found your second city on a location with 5 fishing boats...Normally, it is at least 5 turns for each fishing boat....And then your going to want a lighthouse, etc. Early Samurai saves you 20-30 turns of production. Most people would build work boats,...then a lighthouse once you have 2-3 in your harbor. With Samurai,....Just build a lighthouse immediately, and couple your early advantage with "God of Sea" Pantheon.(With production from every "Free" work boat the lighthouse goes up in record time!)
Yes, a lot has to go right, but if it does...??? It is a dominating strategy early game!
Navelgazer
King
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So now the research for pottery and writing are in the mix too? What speed is this?
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Navelgazer
King
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(I should say that I forgot about the Samurai's work-boat ability, which is awesome. I just must be missing a million optimizations if it's possible that early.)
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chuckh89
Prince
Remember, I said "Best case scenario", and add a few turns (for movement to your 'saved' ruins)
I have gotten the GL on Immortal many times, and you normally need to get it between turn 30-35 on Standard Speed before it is claimed by a AI Civ. That is where those numbers come from...
Ultimately you would research Pottery, Mining, Bronze Working, and hopefully you acquired Writing from a Tech Ruin. shortly after you had enough beakers for Pottery.
Navelgazer
King
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Ahh, thank you!
TheD3rp
Lowly Footsoldier
If you puppet more than 3-4 city states as Enrico, you're doing it wrong. Also, puppeting a city-state reduces the number of votes needed for a diplo victory.
Enjoy half the world denouncing you for cutting off some of their income.
Purchase purchase purchase purchase purchase, and you still have 40,000 gold left over.
Why is not second or third vote okay?
You do not get votes conquered CS. I think eliminated CS reduces the vote counted needed for diplo VC by one but maybe that only applies to Venice and Austria?
chuckh89
Prince
Gauntlets, and Game of the Month, VVV...
I thought I was good until I started playing against the best...Your not receiving a medal on a Diplomacy Gauntlet unless your winning on the 1st, or Second vote (Depending on the skill level)
In the past, if I played under similar game conditions I would apply many of the same tactics, and see if I could better my previous score. Oh, awesome I beat my previous best by 10 turns...Cool! BUT, when someone else beats your best by 50 turns!!, then you know you need to go back to the drawing board, and start asking some questions..??
Right! That is what I thought...No votes for World Leader
One thing I know for sure is...
When I put Venice in a Diplomacy Gauntlet, and he takes out a CS (Puppet). It is impossible to secure a Victory on the first vote. Normally, All CS allied, and World Religion will get you a victory on the first vote (But, you need all the CSs)
chuckh89
Prince
3, or 4..?? I believe my point was....I don't want any cruddy CSs in their current location!! If I can tear them down, and found my own city...Sweet!!
Seriously...?? Put some Warmongers in your game, and see how much they care about being "Denounced", thats not how they operate....They get their gold from Conquest, Demanding Tribute, and Negotiating Peace Deals.
I hope you have a big kitty built up, because once Mongolia gets word of that the local CS (that he had his heart set on) is now puppeted by you...Your going to have Keshiks on your doorstep, and will be buying nothing but units.
Your just feeding him gold if your buying Cargo ships, and Caravan when you at War with a Warmonger.
God forbid, if someone like the Aztecs attack you before you get Optics.
Ohh, you don't put Warmongers in your game?.....That is fine! But, Venice stinks...Stop arguing the point....They are extremely "One Dimensional", and a One Dimensional Civ is not a good Civ.
Let me put it another way....
If I gave a elite player like Cromagnus-Venice....And said, "O.K....Cro, play Venice under these conditions...(Whatever conditions you want).., All 4 victory types.
Now, play the exact same conditions with Attila (Huns),...He would crush every victory condition easily by multiple turns,....including the ones that favor Enrico Dandalo!
TheD3rp
Lowly Footsoldier
Wait, what? Ok, for one you can't raze city-states, and if you could doing it would be an incredibly stupid and idiotic idea as you are essentially throwing away a well developed 10+ pop city.
I'm sure they would care when half the world gangs up on them in a super-coalition. Poor Genghis, you actually tried to be friends with me...
Ok, I will just bribe Genghis's neighbor to declare war on him, and sit eating popcorn as his army gets massacred from being funneled into a choke point.
Just because you have no idea how to play them doesn't mean they suck. Seriously, read one of Zigzagzigal's guides or something.
Acken
Deity
It's not that Venice cannot win, it's that they are ultimately slower. Which is more or less the metric people use for a civ strength.
You could however say that Venice is very easy to win DiploV.
You could however say that Venice is very easy to win DiploV.
Navelgazer
King
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Serious Question: Does Mongolia's UA count against cities which were ever City-States? I mean to say, if I conquer Monaco, or marry it as Austria, or buy it as Venice, does Mongolia still get the bonus? I'd think they wouldn't anymore, but I just realized I don't know.
TheD3rp
Lowly Footsoldier
They don't.
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