WTH? Can someone explain how the AI can maintain such a large army FINANCIALLY?

[moredrowsy]

So, I've been playing on the continent huge map at Prince level for a few days (on and off). I'm playing on a mod that ends a medieval era. I've just completely conquered my entire continent. All of a sudden, 4 civs from other continents waged war on me cuz they think I'm a warmonger for conquering my whole continent (yet they did the same, WTH?). I'm barely able to finance my land army to defend my borders (at -2 gold each turn now). My army covers at most 20 hexes along the southern border for defense (meaning I got like 20 military units). I also barely have enough for 6 triremes total protecting both west and east coasts from invasion.

So, I got tired of defending for like 15+ turns from what seems like an unending barrage of units from Spain. I just revealed the whole map to see exactly how many units they still have. ALL THE AIs LITERALLY HAVE EVERY TILE WITH MILITARY UNITS. Every Civ got about the same number of cities as I do. I checked the diplomacy view before they waged war on me. Their banks are always 0 gold so I'm sure they are bankrupt having all those units. THEN HOW COME THEY CAN STILL KEEP PUMPING OUT MILITARY UNITS after they keep assaulting my borders? I'm quite perplexed at this situation. It's numerically impossible to win.

I'm new to civ so can someone explain how they AIs are able to always finance an impossible amount of military units.

 

[Louis XXIV]

When we get the code, we can check for sure. According to John Shafer (back when he was still with Firaxis), it's a matter of perception. You only lose one unit per turn. For a human, losing a unit is a big deal because it was a waste. For the AI, that means you can be virtually infinitely in debt because the consequences are the same. So it's quite possible their response is simply to produce at least a unit per turn to compensate. Given they have zero gold, it's quite possible this is indeed the case.

That being said, some here have speculated that they are not actually penalized units and that, even on Prince they get more gold than neutral. I can't really comment. Like I said, when we can look at the game code, it'll be easier to know for sure.

 

[moredrowsy]

Analogously, I got all of North America, and she got the whole of South America. I think the AI must be doing some bugged/cheats. Both our continents have around 60-80+ tiles. I'm barely able to afford a defending force of 20-30 units on active duty at -2gold/turn. BUT THE AI HAS EVERY TILE ON HER CONTINENT WITH MILITARY UNITS AND ON ACTIVE DUTY. That is numerically impossible to maintain w/o going into -100 gold/turn. That is just ********. lol.

 

[TPQ]

Analogously, I got all of North America, and she got the whole of South America. I think the AI must be doing some bugged/cheats. Both our continents have around 60-80+ tiles. I'm barely able to afford a defending force of 20-30 units on active duty at -2gold/turn. BUT THE AI HAS EVERY TILE ON HER CONTINENT WITH MILITARY UNITS AND ON ACTIVE DUTY. That is numerically impossible to maintain w/o going into -100 gold/turn. That is just ********. lol.

The last game I played I ended up with 700+ (1400+ in a golden age) gold per turn income after paying for all of my buildings and units in 30+ puppet cities and 5 of my own settled cities.

My air force consisted of 10 stealth bombers, 15 bombers, 5 Jet fighters and 5 fighters. That's 35 units just for an air force. I had about 20 land units on active duty and another 1 unit for each city garrison, as well as about 20 workers. I didn't pay for garrisoned units as I had the social policy that negates the cost, so I was paying for ~75 units in total, with 700+ gold per turn left after that. I could of supported at least a couple of hundred more units on active duty if I'd wanted them.

Bottom line? Get your economy sorted. It isn't difficult to fund a large army.

 

[moredrowsy]

Bottom line: Get your reading sorted. I did say "I'm playing on a mod that ends a medieval era" at the second sentence. -_-

THERE'S NO BANKS OR STOCK EXCHANGE. Hence, did you read that the military units were spearmen, swordsman, and archers? Geez.

Also, I already built all the trade routes, markets, with even 9 gem resources, a lot of rivers. Only had workshops, culture and happiness buildings. No barracks, aqueducts, granary etc. All with over population 10 so the trade routes had good income too. I also have the wonder machu pichu that increase gold from trade routes. I also checked "Gold" emphasis on the citizens for all my cities. So yes, I am already maximizing my gold output already. It's just that the military units also cost a lot for MEDIEVAL ERA gold income.

This should go the same for the AIs. ALSO, did you read that I checked the diplomacy trade before they waged war on me? They ALWAYS HAVE ZERO GOLD and are like -20 to -55 gold/turn. Heck, Spain was like at -55 gold/turn for who knows how long. I know cause I wanted to trade my luxury resource with her. We both have about the same number of cities. But apparently, when I'm barely able to afford a standing army of 20-30 some units, the AI apparently can have ALL THEIR TILES WITH MILITARY UNITS OCCUPY (70 some tiles = 70 some military units in the medieval era).


Edit: yes, i already know that at modern era, it is easy to obtain those gold/turn incomes with banks and stock exchange. but the modern era became so boring so applied the end at medieval mod. I wanted to see/feel how the ancients built such large empires in the olden days.

 

[joncnunn]

I'm thinking there is a good possibility that on Chieftain level there is no unit disbandment penalty. And that the AI gets that specific handicap at all levels.

 

[moredrowsy]

I've just started civ 5 (first civ game ever) for only 2 weeks. I'm still playing on Prince. I'm on standard speed btw. lol

I mean, I wouldn't be complaining if this was numerically possible to overcome. But whenever I clear 1-2 waves of pikemen, my swordsmen just get outflanked again with their never ending waves of pikeman. yea like literally they just pump out pikeman/archers every turn to fill up all their tiles. like wow really, how is that even possible. I thought there's penalties for being bankrupt. They also must be spending Colosseum, temples, etc to upkeep their happiness too you know. It's just perplexing the AI seems to always have infinite supply of military units late game at the END OF MEDIEVAL era mod.

Also, this is just so boring late game. It's not like one or two army battling each other and seeing if I can use hills/flanking maneuver. It's LITERALLY me fighting a WALL OF SOLDIERS that span 70 tiles and it always get filled up. WTFCK.

I'm wondering if this is a bug. =/

 

[PhilBowles]

So, I've been playing on the continent huge map at Prince level for a few days (on and off). I'm playing on a mod that ends a medieval era. I've just completely conquered my entire continent. All of a sudden, 4 civs from other continents waged war on me cuz they think I'm a warmonger for conquering my whole continent (yet they did the same, WTH?).

"They think you're a warmonger" means someone denounced you and they count that against you, I think. It doesn't actually mean you necessarily declare war on everyone.

 

[NotSure]

sounds like an interesting mod. have you tried going heavy with crossbows? ranged units are pretty devastating in this game.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Analogously, I got all of North America, and she got the whole of South America. I think the AI must be doing some bugged/cheats. Both our continents have around 60-80+ tiles. I'm barely able to afford a defending force of 20-30 units on active duty at -2gold/turn. BUT THE AI HAS EVERY TILE ON HER CONTINENT WITH MILITARY UNITS AND ON ACTIVE DUTY. That is numerically impossible to maintain w/o going into -100 gold/turn. That is just ********. lol.

Did you even read my suggestion? It's entirely possible that they are losing a unit per turn. Do you have any evidence that they are not (i.e., have you cataloged all their units and see if they're all still in place the next turn?).

 

[joncnunn]

Agreed with Not Sure; AI tends to fair poorly against formations of Melee units in front, Ranged in the back.

Keep in mind that the game balance handicaps were based on the standard game though. The mod your playing might be like playing the standard game one or two difficulty levels higher than you are used to.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

I've read so often on these forums that the AI never has to disband units, however much in debt it is that I assumed it was common knowledge.

Bottomline, the AI cheats, on pretty much any level at pretty much everything, this is all just compensation for it's inability to actually play this game. This includes the warmonger stuff, it's ok if they wage war constantly but if the player does it, it triggers their 'warmonger' label.

 

[Louis XXIV]

The problem with that is it was vehemently denied. Not just denied, but "when the game code is released, you'll have to point out to me where I mistakenly programmed that." Given that the game code is going to be released, that strikes me as a pretty bold statement to lie about.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Ofcourse I can't go in to the gamecode but with the frequency that situations happen where the AI has a large army but negative gold and income I'm sure I can make a screenshot if that proves anything.

 

[joncnunn]

AI defines war mongling quite a bit differently than a human does.

What the AI cares about are:
1. Capturing the last city that a civ (or city state) had, thus wiping them out.
2. DOWs against city states.

That long term war in which you took 15 cities from a single AI including a capital but made peace rather than wiping them out: AI doesn't care.

DOW 1 city state, conquering it: Most civs will consider you to be a monster.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Ofcourse I can't go in to the gamecode but with the frequency that situations happen where the AI has a large army but negative gold and income I'm sure I can make a screenshot if that proves anything.

The screenshots would have to count all AI units two turns in a row. Like I said, my theory is that they are losing one unit per turn and simply building new units to replace them. It doesn't matter if you lose one gold per turn or 100 gold per turn when it comes to units being disbanded.

 

[moredrowsy]

@ Louis XXIV
I haven't cataloged which unit gets disbanded. I just see every tile with military unit (with the console reveal map). Your suggestion is quite valid though. They could've just keep pumping out units to compensate the disbanded units.

Also, about the warmongler part, I only destroyed a civ after they delcared war on me. I wasn't my fault that Genghis Khan invaded me first. Actually, when Genghis Khan invaded me, I only have one city (was going for super one city build at first). Also, I'm also pretty sure if I left him alone for long enough after peace, he would've tried to invade me again (that's his personality). So I just decided to wipe him out. Then the other people started to denounce me repeatedly for a war I didn't even start.

 

[Dirk_Diggler]

@ Louis XXIV
I haven't cataloged which unit gets disbanded. I just see every tile with military unit (with the console reveal map). Your suggestion is quite valid though. They could've just keep pumping out units to compensate the disbanded units.

Also, about the warmongler part, I only destroyed a civ after they delcared war on me. I wasn't my fault that Genghis Khan invaded me first. Actually, when Genghis Khan invaded me, I only have one city (was going for super one city build at first). Also, I'm also pretty sure if I left him alone for long enough after peace, he would've tried to invade me again (that's his personality). So I just decided to wipe him out. Then the other people started to denounce me repeatedly for a war I didn't even start.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it's something I think I've noticed.

When a Civ is willing to sign white peace of give you something for peace, it doesn't matter if they started it, the civs look down on you. I had a time where I got Monty to his last city, from a war he started, and he wouldn't sign peace, so I killed him and no one seemed to care.

 

[Louis XXIV]

In my experience, it helps if they've declared war on you, you have declarations of friendship, and the people you are friends with have denounced the person who declared war on you. However, even then you can't push it. Wiping out civs is definitely frowned upon.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

The screenshots would have to count all AI units two turns in a row. Like I said, my theory is that they are losing one unit per turn and simply building new units to replace them. It doesn't matter if you lose one gold per turn or 100 gold per turn when it comes to units being disbanded.

I'm not sure what the production bonusses are at king but I suspect not enough to push out a military unit every freaking turn, and rushbuying is ofcourse out of the question.