Yay... constant War

[Zechnophobe]

So, I'm not sure what tweak did this, but almost every game I've played in .40 has had constant quasi random declarations of war in it. In the first 100 turns I had three different random AI's decide I had to die.

Even more fun, is that no other AI has yet to declare on another. It makes it even more silly that each 'attack wave' has been a few warriors and scouts. Hardly a force, but still requires you stop building your lands and often loses you a few improvements. And yeah, if they jump a city with just a warrior defending it (Bad you!) you lose it.

It's just annoying, and reminds me a lot of the previos version of the game that had this problem (.32 I believe) where the AI's just seemed to like to declare war, for no seemingly good reason. (Dislike, need to expand, etc).

And the consistence of it is rather... limiting in the kind of game you can play. If there's another AI about, then at turn 40 to 60 they'll send some guys your way.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

That doesn't seem to be intentional from the changelog or anything I've read from Kael. If it is consistent over a few games, post in the bug thread.

 

[hbar]

Dunno if its consistent, but it is widespread. I had that happen to me my first game. I was Dain, and my neighbors were Sheelba, Os-Gaballa, and Charadon (not that they are kind of neighbors you'd lend a hedge trimmer to...). Os DoW'd first, and razed a poorly defended city (turn ~60. Two warriors, Bad me!). Then Orthus showed up, so I took his axe and let Os know what hospitality really looks like. In the meantime, Charadon DoW'd (turn ~70) and sent a mini-stack to wander around my territory for a while before going home. I had open borders with Sheelba for about ~15 turns before she DoW'd me (turn ~100). I tried sending an elite strike force in, but Warrens make for a difficult war of attrition. I was saved by Varn DoWing on all evil civs after summoning Basium, but at this point I only had two cities and a lot of digging to do.

Short version - AIs are really aggressive this version.

Edit - I do not have aggressive AI on.

 

[Sarisin]

So, I'm not sure what tweak did this, but almost every game I've played in .40 has had constant quasi random declarations of war in it. In the first 100 turns I had three different random AI's decide I had to die.

Even more fun, is that no other AI has yet to declare on another. It makes it even more silly that each 'attack wave' has been a few warriors and scouts. Hardly a force, but still requires you stop building your lands and often loses you a few improvements. And yeah, if they jump a city with just a warrior defending it (Bad you!) you lose it.

It's just annoying, and reminds me a lot of the previos version of the game that had this problem (.32 I believe) where the AI's just seemed to like to declare war, for no seemingly good reason. (Dislike, need to expand, etc).

And the consistence of it is rather... limiting in the kind of game you can play. If there's another AI about, then at turn 40 to 60 they'll send some guys your way.

How many games have you played? I'm still muddling through my first, but based on my first game, I agree with you.

Are you using the AggAI setting? I am and there have been constant wars from early on. Some have been between AI civs, but I have always had one going and dogpiling is alive and well as are some giant stacks the AI is creating - all at Monarch.

One thing that bothers me (I mentioned this in the FF forum) is when you go to some trouble to cultivate diplomatic relations with your neighbor and it just backfires. Two civs I had Pleased relations with suddenly canceled open borders agreements (separately) and immediately moved a stack in while declaring war in the same turn.

Again, it really makes you want to just say the hell with diplomacy as the buggers will attack you anyway. I think this still has to do with the power ratings or whatever they are as I have a small, but very veteran army while the AI is churning out numbers - usually Tier 1 and 2 units. They see themselves as more powerful because they have more units, but they are easily wiped out even though there is 50 or more in a stack.

Anyway, it's a shame the whole diplomatic feature of the game seems out the window.

 

[KingOfLands]

It appears to be mainly, but not exclusively, the Evil AIs that are prone to this. That said, in a game with the Sidar I thought I had my defenses covered due to a bizarre series of wars between Einion (who started it), Auric, and Alexis. Since nobody had been paying attention to me and Mokka had taken over Faeryl's capital I felt vaguely safe. Then Jonas showed up about turn 180, having plowed through Tebryn on the way, with more Axemen than I could count.

Advanced Starts seem to aggravate the problem slightly, but the main thing in my mind is that, particularly on Earthlike Tectonics maps, starts are REALLY close together. Since I started playing .40 I rarely manage to have a game without seeing someone's borders from my own from the get-go.

The Frostlings are really aggravating too, mainly because they wander through your territory but only attack undefended workers, and tend to exacerbate the problem when Auric spawns them.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Still doing immortal, haven't noticed particularly more aggression. By turn 260 I've been attacked once.

Location: Goleta, California

wut

I lived down there ~2 years ago. Do you go to UCSB?

 

[Sarisin]

I wanted to add a couple of points to this thread based on my only game so far in .40a (Amurites, Epic, Monarch, Huge Fantasy Realm map, 8 AI civs left)

First, there have been constant, and I mean constant wars since about Turn 300 and I am in Turn 775 now. Only once was I able to get peace from one of the civs (6 have declared war on me - Calabim/Mercurian, Khazad, Lanun, Balseraph, and Clan).

I'm not sure which version this change occurred, but now you NEVER see the AI propose peace. In past versions, often when the AI was getting killed (even after being the aggressor) it would sue for peace, sometimes offering Gold, Techs, etc. In this game not one offer of peace even as I wiped out the Clan. More about why I think this is in a second.

The other thing I noticed in my first .40 game is that the AI will not accept cease fire proposals from me. While I didn't offer anything to sweeten the deal, normally after a long war, the AI would accept a cease fire. Not in this game. I have a lot of unhappiness in my cities because of these long wars (most are more than 300 turns long), but the AI doesn't appear to be having any of that.

Anyway, here are three guesses on why wars are a little tougher in .40.

1. There is still a problem with the power rating or whatever it is called. I have a very powerful army (actually two of them), but the AI doesn't seem to recognize this because they have superior numbers in their army. I have two very mobile (roads built allover my small 6 city civ) strong armies made up of 12-15 units - Fireballers (Wizards, Firebows, and even priests) and mostly very strong Tier IV units. My own Tier IV units have well over 200 XP each with one Beastmaster at 800 XP. These are supplemented by captured additional Tier IV units Govannon/Domination and units with Command III have procured for me. The captured Brujahs have been great for giving all my guys Vampirism.

Each AI civ has at least 20 cities and is only churning out units. I am constantly faced with stacks from (now) five civs of 15-20 units which are obliterated in short order by one of my mobile armies. Oh, one other thing, I have Nox Noctis, so they theoretically (I wonder sometimes!) cannot see where my armies are. I also have posted 4 strong Shadows at the main approaches to my borders - they act as Scouts and bottom feed off Catapults, etc. as they approach.

The point is I am piling up a huge body count with these constant wars and no one is budging on peace. Are these power ratings the cause and should they be modified?

One other possibility: I am the only civ with FOL. The six, now five, at war with me have all been ROK. We are all Neutral, however. Is it possible that the 'religious differences' are causing these wars to this extent?

And, one final possibility: I have had the high score throughout the game. Are the AI civs declaring war on me and refusing peace because of my score? I know I am reaching a bit with this possibility, but still bring it up.

Honestly, I am loving the hell out of my first .40 game. I love the constant wars and building up an invincible army. I haven't tried any scenarios yet (I wanted to get a feel for the changes first), and I might never do so if I can keep having games like this.

 

[the343danny]

Only played the scenarios (Grand Menagerie, and Momus). Dunno if its just the scenario, but the enemies always had a large stack which just kept coming and coming in the Momus scenario. Good thing highly promoted longbows just rape everything. Well anyways, I actually like it because all but early wars are completely one sided for me, unless its the enemy that dows. Actually, the enemy didnt DOW too much on my in previous versions besides with the councils.

 

[avalonnn]

Yup I had it happen to me -- but it's been civ-consistent. Once it was the Hippus and once it was Faeryl. Usually one or two units can stop the wave. The second time was particularly crazy because I was one turn away from The Hand. Playing on Noble, The Hand alone destroyed the Svart (dropping some axmen in rear areas to hold cities).

Anyway, if the warlike civs have been programmed to fight (and it's not the Kurio or Elohim deciding you have to die) that's fine by me.

Also want to say that .40 is very stable for me so far and I'm liking it a lot.

 

[heisenberg]

Hmm... I haven't really noticed extra aggression either though in my past 040 games (as well as in FF which I have heard Sarisin comment on in the FF section).
Besides the natural warmongers like the Doviello, Malakim, Hippus, I haven't really seen any unusuall aggressive actions by the usual peaceful civs like the Elohim--and I usually play Agg AI too.

And yea in your case Avalonn, the Hippus and the Svalts usually attack pretty early once they get horsemen/hunters up.

@Sarisin:
Ceasefire-wise you'd have to significantly wreck your rival's army--simply being able to stop them from taking your cities wouldn't do unless you are able to become the significantly stronger of the two.

I believe the Army size (which could be checked under the demographics section) is what really matters when civs decide whether to war with you. They don't respect a highly experienced small elite force as much as a huge army of green troops right out of boot camp.
Diplomacy-wise being on friendly terms with another civ has its invaluable advantages in them wanting to trade resources and techs with you, but when it comes to military decisions.... nothing acts as a greater deterrence as a respectable standing army--even Furious rivals think twice about agreeing to dogpile on you when you are already fighting a multi-front war when they are significantly weaker.

As for score-wise, I've only had civs dogpile on me when I'm shooting for an Altar or Tower victory. So I doubt its the case.

 

[Sarisin]

@Sarisin:
Ceasefire-wise you'd have to significantly wreck your rival's army--simply being able to stop them from taking your cities wouldn't do unless you are able to become the significantly stronger of the two.

I believe the Army size (which could be checked under the demographics section) is what really matters when civs decide whether to war with you. They don't respect a highly experienced small elite force as much as a huge army of green troops right out of boot camp.
Diplomacy-wise being on friendly terms with another civ has its invaluable advantages in them wanting to trade resources and techs with you, but when it comes to military decisions.... nothing acts as a greater deterrence as a respectable standing army--even Furious rivals think twice about agreeing to dogpile on you when you are already fighting a multi-front war when they are significantly weaker.

As for score-wise, I've only had civs dogpile on me when I'm shooting for an Altar or Tower victory. So I doubt its the case.

Thanks for your comments, h. I completely destroyed the Clan city by city and it didn't ask for a cease fire/peace. Several times I asked and I got some sort of corny response. So, despite moving the AC upwards (it was ROK), I wiped them out.

Yes, I am convinced now that it is the quantity of units you have in your army, not the quality of the troops. If you had, say, 30 Tier IV units, heroes, etc. you would still be attacked by the swarms of Axemen, Horsemen, Archers, and Chariots. This is what is happening in my game and, honestly, it is fun (especially with the Nox Noctis) to watch a stack approach, seemingly unaware to find one of my powerful armies waiting for them. They are fielding Tier IV units too now, however they have only 1 or 2 promotions and after a few Fireballs to soften them up, the stack is history.

The only ones who are giving me some problems are the Mercurians who are sending a steady stream of Angels and their special Tier IV units. Sadly, they cannot be Dominated or captured. Fortunately, their AI is whacky because they send a fast moving Ophium or Herald with a one-move Angel and they approach slowly.

 

[smurven]

I havent had a computer offer a cease fire in civ 4 period. I thought that feature was gone since the days of old. Has anyone EVER had a cease fire in civ 4? (vanilla/bts/ffh)

 

[Methuselah]

I havent had a computer offer a cease fire in civ 4 period. I thought that feature was gone since the days of old. Has anyone EVER had a cease fire in civ 4? (vanilla/bts/ffh)

No, only by event.

Had plenty of civs offer to be vassals without warring them or anything though.

 

[pchem]

No, only by event.

Had plenty of civs offer to be vassals without warring them or anything though.

Come to think of it, that is really weird. Why doesn't the AI ever sue for peace with you when they're losing? Offer techs in exchange for peace? I know you can make that kind of offer to them when you're winning, but they should be able to 'just propose' it too. I mean, they do this in AI-AI wars, right?

 

[Monkeyfinger]

They used to crawl to me begging me to ease off in the unexpanded game and warlords, but BtS killed that off, and FfH kept BtS's lack of that behavior.

 

[Mailbox]

One thing I've noticed that's very unexpected and new is Civilizations gifting taken cities back to the civilization they took them from. Is this a common thing or is it because it was the Elohim doing it (despite them having even less reason than normal to do so )?

 

[Sarisin]

They used to crawl to me begging me to ease off in the unexpanded game and warlords, but BtS killed that off, and FfH kept BtS's lack of that behavior.

Yes, it definitely used to happen all the time. Usually they would offer Gold or maybe a tech for peace. Now that you mention it, it does seem that this 'feature' vanished with BtS.

I play with Vassals shut off, so I don't know about that.

Being used to them not offering, I wasn't surprised, but what surprised me a little is there lack of acceptance when I proposed a cease fire. Again, I think they look at those power ratings or whatever it is and if they are higher (i.e., more units) they will refuse. It is interesting to see how long it takes before they stop "Refusing to Talk."

 

[Methuselah]

Something interesting that I just learnt, although I'm sure most people knew already:

If you're winning a war, and talk to the AI and say "let us bury the hatchet - what is the price for peace", they will actually offer you items to stop warring them.

 

[westamastaflash]

AI will never give me techs for peace. Ever. Ever.

 

[Sarisin]

Something interesting that I just learnt, although I'm sure most people knew already:

If you're winning a war, and talk to the AI and say "let us bury the hatchet - what is the price for peace", they will actually offer you items to stop warring them.

Yeah, but how do you (or the AI) define WINNING A WAR?

I'm afraid that even though the AI is getting pounded by your small veteran army, if they have more units that you do, they will think THEY are winning the war. They likely will even refuse to talk.

It's funny because you could be capturing/razing their cities right and left, but they are churning out level 1 or 2 units (going up against your Tier IV juggernauts) and they seem to think they are winning the war.

That is an interesting feature you have pointed out, though. Thank you for that.