Just the absurd amounts of yields that you get from the various societies, coupled with the yields that you would get from him. Maybe not game breaking but better than Qin if you only played that game mode.
Just the absurd amounts of yields that you get from the various societies, coupled with the yields that you would get from him. Maybe not game breaking but better than Qin if you only played that game mode.
Yongle is probably a super potent combo with Voidsingers, but from my own game I can confirm that Yongle + Owls of Minerva is a pretty good combination thanks to the extra economic card and the trade bonus.
You've answered your own question already - Qin is game breaking, in a single mode most people don't play. That's the key difference, Yongle is great in any game, Qin is game breaking in a specific circumstance that most people won't encounter. That's why Yongle is better than Qin.
Yongle is probably a super potent combo with Voidsingers, but from my own game I can confirm that Yongle + Owls of Minerva is a pretty good combination thanks to the extra economic card and the trade bonus.
You've answered your own question already - Qin is game breaking, in a single mode most people don't play. That's the key difference, Yongle is great in any game, Qin is game breaking in a specific circumstance that most people won't encounter. That's why Yongle is better than Qin.
I would be utterly shocked to find out that the devs did any playtesting of the new leaders with any of the modes on. Maybe Secret Societies and Monopolies and Corporations since those seem to be the two most popular but even then, I doubt it. They've specifically stated in the past that they try and balance the game around the middle, ie. not the smallest map or the largest and usually continent style, so things are going to get weird or broken on occasion with outlier settings.
You've answered your own question already - Qin is game breaking, in a single mode most people don't play. That's the key difference, Yongle is great in any game, Qin is game breaking in a specific circumstance that most people won't encounter.
I would be utterly shocked to find out that the devs did any playtesting of the new leaders with any of the modes on. Maybe Secret Societies and Monopolies and Corporations since those seem to be the two most popular but even then, I doubt it.
You keep analysing it as if "game breaking" made sense in a vacuum.
Compared to what? His ability makes him stronger than many vanilla civs, but that's it.
I can't play right now but I usually do hotseat, so when I have time I'll set up a game with Yongle and Qin and see who comes on top. I'm not even convinced Qin is stronger than Wu Zetian.
Do they? As far as I can tell, more people play it than Dark Ages or Zombies but nowhere near as much societies or corporations. Not to mention the fact that if you do that enough the camp will turn into a city-state eventually. And, again, I seriously doubt most people play with modes on to begin with. I used societies for a while but I never tried the clans mode. And, going back to PMcW since he's the only Civ streamer I've ever watched, he doesn't always play with modes on and, even when he does, he doesn't always play with the same modes on. And, again, we are back to edge case scenarios that most players will never encounter. I don't care about leaders with broken abilities in situations I'll never encounter. I'm never playing with clans mode on, why should care about Qin then?
Do they? As far as I can tell, more people play it than Dark Ages or Zombies but nowhere near as much societies or corporations. Not to mention the fact that if you do that enough the camp will turn into a city-state eventually. And, again, I seriously doubt most people play with modes on to begin with. I used societies for a while but I never tried the clans mode. And, going back to PMcW since he's the only Civ streamer I've ever watched, he doesn't always play with modes on and, even when he does, he doesn't always play with the same modes on. And, again, we are back to edge case scenarios that most players will never encounter. I don't care about leaders with broken abilities in situations I'll never encounter. I'm never playing with clans mode on, why should care about Qin then?
I can't play right now but I usually do hotseat, so when I have time I'll set up a game with Yongle and Qin and see who comes on top. I'm not even convinced Qin is stronger than Wu Zetian.
Unifier Qin (+clans mode) vs. Yongle, alt Qin, Wu Zetian, Kublai Khan (China) and Tokugawa(?) on snowflake.
(There are almost enough leaders to play a China only snowflake map!)
Unifier Qin (+clans mode) vs. Yongle, alt Qin, Wu Zetian, Kublai Khan (China) and Tokugawa(?) on snowflake.
(There are almost enough leaders to play a China only snowflake map!)
Again, edge case scenarios aren't really going to tell you anything useful about how something would function in an average game. That's the key point here. No one is arguing that Qin isn't broken in specific circumstances, its just that those circumstance won't occur in the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of game the vast majority of players will play.
Not on TSL maps.
Or World Builder maps (like snowflake).
A challenge then:
Unifier Qin (+clans mode) vs. Yongle, alt Qin, Wu Zetian, Kublai Khan (China) and Tokugawa(?) on snowflake.
(There are almost enough leaders to play a China only snowflake map!)
If you get lucky and have a camp in a spot that can't change to a CS (within 3 tiles of a city), you can rinse and repeat. But you're still only getting a unit every 10 turns when you can raid the camp. And to really chain it, the base unit in the camp needs to be one you want. Most camps default to the spearmen line as their base unit, so it's not like you're getting a unit that can convert more. Sure, it's better than Julius' trick to get 100 gold for the same thing, but you're not auto-winning a game off that, since you still need to kill your unit. Qin's unit printing IMO really goes off the deep end if you can have a camp that's scouted you print units for you. The raided units are a nice bonus, but not enough to really change the game.
Of course, doing that on Marathon also changes the math, since the 10 turn clan raid timer doesn't scale to game speed either. If you compare them on normal speed, I think the gap would narrow a lot. New Qin if you get the right camps absolutely is insane. But if you get unlucky with camp spawns, or AI City-States are too good at sniping the camps from you, I'd rather base game Qin's abilities.
Do they? As far as I can tell, more people play it than Dark Ages or Zombies but nowhere near as much societies or corporations. Not to mention the fact that if you do that enough the camp will turn into a city-state eventually. And, again, I seriously doubt most people play with modes on to begin with. I used societies for a while but I never tried the clans mode. And, going back to PMcW since he's the only Civ streamer I've ever watched, he doesn't always play with modes on and, even when he does, he doesn't always play with the same modes on. And, again, we are back to edge case scenarios that most players will never encounter. I don't care about leaders with broken abilities in situations I'll never encounter. I'm never playing with clans mode on, why should care about Qin then?
I usually play with Clans and Corporations on most every time. Occasionally I'll turn on Secret Societies or Heroes and Legends if I want a specific combo to try out.
Unifier Qin (+clans mode) vs. Yongle, alt Qin, Wu Zetian, Kublai Khan (China) and Tokugawa(?) on snowflake.
(There are almost enough leaders to play a China only snowflake map!)
LOL. You can't do marathon if you're playing hotseat. I play online speed (with p0kiehl's extended eras) and that makes it already much longer than a marathon game when you account for total of turns. Otherwise the game would last until Christmas.
I'm also not playing snowflake. I don't like that map. You already know where everybody is. It's too predictable which means military focused civs have an advantage.
I also don't play deity in Hotseat games because the only effect is in barbarian aggressiveness, which always results in some Civs getting unlucky while others get to prosper. So I keep it at king to give every civ a decent chance.
I do currently play Qin with Barbarian Clans mode. The interaction is strong and unique, but not overpowered. You do lose the converting unit and if you keep the camp secured and raid, it spawns only one unit. One for one is not a great trade.
I actually feel it is more powerful with vanilla barbs. The conversion in camp instantly disbands the camp.
I usually don't play with any modes because the AI doesn't know what they're doing with them at all. If I do, it's usually one of some of heroes, monopolies, and secret societies. Originally secret societies was my favorite but it ruins the balance so much that I rarely use it anymore.
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