Difficulty levelvel

[yung.carl.jung]

I would agree with most that @Lily_Lancer is trolling. Lately he hasn't really made any informative or strategic posts, which is a shame. He used to post some really valuable information, but nowadays he mostly ridicules players for not playing Deity. I wish he'd return to posting more productively.

The AI is light years ahead of where it was at launch

They're slightly better at defending cities. That's literally all there is to it. I have Vanilla still on my other PC and play it every now and then. It's actually harder in some regard, because R&F and GS introduced so many beneficial mechanics for the player. Absolutely nothing has changed in most regards. They're not more aggressive nor more likely to win the game.

I think my cousin has an obsession and is not really enjoying a game. He even says you cannot have "fun" at deity, it is a totally different experience that is very frustrating and unforgiving.

I am your cousin, spiritually. And yes, I don't always have fun. Civ only really became fun for me when I heavily modded Civ 5. And in the beginning of course, when there was still challenge.

Ask yourself this: How much fun is there playing against a chess computer when you know for a fact that the chess computer is programmed to never win? There is very little fun in that. And that's Civ 6 for ya. The AI is programmed to **** around for 300 turns so that almost everyone can finish the game in time.

He wins less than 1/3 of deity games he plays. And Im sure there are better players out there, but Im not aware of a simple player in the world that wins on deity more than half the games without exploits.

I haven't lost a single game on Deity in either 5 or 6 (after getting gutted initially by Deity AI in 5. Took me about 4 or 5 tries to win I think). I keep asking for people to post impossible starts, but it never happens.

Even when I commit to not-rerolling, not reloading, not exploiting the AI, I still finish around T200-T250.

King is the last difficulty level on which you can reliably win simply going with the flow, without min-maxing, chopping everything in sight, optimizing all decisions, chaining eurakas etc.

I think that is just your experience. Also, you take offense at mechanics like chopping, when for me chopping is "going with the flow". I'm pretty sure people have won Deity with a single city, which is suboptimal in literally every single regard. So yeah, "optimal" play is not necessary for Emperor, Immortal, nor Deity.

Im sure you are a long time player and that you have played a lot and researched a lot about the game. There are strategies you can use to win. And probably you have learned and studied many of them.

But you can only do that by studying the game inside and outside: watching online videos, reading guides and playing hundreds of hours.

To pretend that a new player should have the same knowledge or hability it is not reasonable.

My first game in Civ 6 was on Emperor, my second on Deity, both were won without minmaxing or trying very hard. I had no prior knowledge of game mechanics or strats. But as you say correctly, a lot of things carry over. Civ 6 is not that different from Civ 5.

Don't forget save scumming

I've been playing since Civ 2 (So 20+ years). I play on Emperor (3rd highest difficulty) and I only win about 50% of the time. Two of my last three games America beat me by a handful of turns.

What many Deity players won't tell you is how often they re-roll the map when they get stuck with a crappy start. Or when they ragequit on turn 30 cos they start stuck between Montezuma, Gheghis Khan, and Aminitore.

No offense, but when people say something like "a lot of Deity players reroll and save scum!!" you are just rationalizing your own failure. It's okay to not play at Deity, honestly Deity isn't much harder than Emperor or Immortal. It's just artificial difficulty.

But when you say stuff like that, you make your own position less belieable. Plenty of players win Deity without save-scumming or rerolling maps, it's not that hard when you already know the strategies and the mechanisms of the AI. Civ has zero mechanical skill involved, so it all boils down to knowledge and decisionmaking.

 

[AntSou]

@oSiyeza Out of curiosity, when you tried Immortal, did you play to the end, or at what point did you give up?

I'm asking because you may have decided you were doing poorly because of how far behind you were, but this doesn't account for the AI's complete loss of steam around the late Renaissance/Early Industrial.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

That’s a good point. When I first started watching these deity streams I was always kind of annoyed how they kept reeolling and rerolling until having the perfect start. They also use tricks like stabilizing district costs and the trick to unlock the policy cards for free - things I consider to be meta gaming.

The fact that locking in district costs has never been patched out when other exploits like the chop overflow have, leads me to believe it's an intended game feature

 

[Chefofrats]

I guess part of this discussion is down to the distinction between various kinds of gamers. I do not like to be challenged by a game, I play for fun, and to have fun I have to relax. I enjoy Civ because it lets me explore an interesting, alternative Earth, and build my own culture. I like King, because I know I will win, so I can relax and have my fun. I do not enjoy games I know I might not succeed in. There is no enjoyment in losing for me.

 

[Civrinn]

Honestly I'll echo what Casworon said. In every iteration of Civ starting from Civ 2 I have never been a "deity player". Even Civ 5 (not modded) I think I only ever got to immortal. (Granted I'm probably better now due to time + VP mod). When I played Civ 6 I would get fairly bored on deity tbh and I could have gone for "more efficient wins" but I'm more about immersion which is why I ended up giving it up.

To your point though, if you want an engaging AI that will put you in your place you'd be better off playing Civ 5 Vox Populi. When I first fired up VP I had to start on Warlord. The AI is super aggressive and very good (for an AI) at tactics. (To be fair I'm making this claim as someone prior to 6 would never call themselves a deity player). Now I'm playing in between King and Emp on VP depending on which Civ / Strat I'm trying to do.

For me though it isn't about beating the game it's about playing a game that's actually engaging and immersive. I played a VP game last night where long story short I had to attack Persia if I wanted a chance at victory. I went into a long war (1840-1930 on epic speed) where all of my production / gold and everything I could muster had to be used to out produce Persia because toe to toe his troops would destroy mine.

I got so lost in the war effort that I didn't notice Morocco had taken off on a strong tech lead and culture lead. Once I finally won against Persia I had lost the game. It took me everything to win and I couldn't break Persia quick enough. Even at a loss the game was a lot of fun.

Tbf though if you are the pure builder kind of person you might enjoy 6 due to districts. However from what you have typed I don't think you are that kind of person.

Anywho if it is free on epic games give Civ 6 a spin, but definitely check out Civ 5 Vox Populi. I have a feeling that's more up your alley.

 

[comatosedragon]

The fact that locking in district costs has never been patched out when other exploits like the chop overflow have, leads me to believe it's an intended game feature

I am hoping (against hope) that this "mechanic" will be removed from the game once it is 100% complete. In my mind, the developers say "Well, we don't want to balance it right now for all the future stuff we might add which will complicate the math -- but once we are done, lets do one final final balance pass and remove that ridiculous district cost locking thing!"

Oh, and my difficulty/speed is mentioned in my signature (wish more people did this); although I have been enjoying a lot more King games lately.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Sorry, but this is all nonsense.
A side note: Deity isn't always the hardest difficulty, that could sometimes be Immortal. The less aggressive AI makes it less likely you'll get free cities early on to boost your start, and the AI is more likely to focus on developing their Empire.

This right here is a smart post. AntSou is in fact right, Immortal or Emperor can be harder than Deity sometimes. Because on Deity you have more cities to conquer, you can take more gold from the AI, can steal more tech boosts (honestly that never happens but eh), steal a settler potentially, there are many things the player can take advantage of.

Always remember to ignore lily. He is an online speed constant war special sausage.

I don't see how that discredits him.. Online speed Deity is probably the single hardest way to play Civ.. I think his posts are more of a reason to discredit him than his in-game preferences..

despite being at the 400 hours mark on Civ 6, I lose on king often enough.

We are both at 400 hours, but I played my second game on Deity and haven't gone lower since. Just incredibly how wildly different our experiences are.

I am hoping (against hope) that this "mechanic" will be removed from the game once it is 100% complete. In my mind, the developers say "Well, we don't want to balance it right now for all the future stuff we might add which will complicate the math -- but once we are done, lets do one final final balance pass and remove that ridiculous district cost locking thing!"

Oh, and my difficulty/speed is mentioned in my signature (wish more people did this); although I have been enjoying a lot more King games lately.

noooo! this mechanic has been there since vanilla and it requires so much thought and planning to pull off and it's really cool and rewarding. don't make the game less complex for no reason whatsoever.

if you don't like it.. why not just ignore it? why do you want to actively punish players who enjoy in-depth games?.. it doesn't hard you in any way..

 

[oSiyeza]

@oSiyeza Out of curiosity, when you tried Immortal, did you play to the end, or at what point did you give up?

I'm asking because you may have decided you were doing poorly because of how far behind you were, but this doesn't account for the AI's complete loss of steam around the late Renaissance/Early Industrial.

Honestly, I don’t really remember. I played too much this game, and I used to have too many mods too. I know I have tried everything above prince at least once, and I know I never finished on deity (but I used to play some previous civ games on deity). Also I have a lot of embarrassing last minute defeats on King. Now I just don’t see any reason to play above what I'm comfortable with.

 

[Basajaun]

I am hoping (against hope) that this "mechanic" will be removed from the game once it is 100% complete. In my mind, the developers say "Well, we don't want to balance it right now for all the future stuff we might add which will complicate the math -- but once we are done, lets do one final final balance pass and remove that ridiculous district cost locking thing!"

Oh, and my difficulty/speed is mentioned in my signature (wish more people did this); although I have been enjoying a lot more King games lately.

Good idea, at least helps with perspective. There are a lot of conditions that can change how a game progresses.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Honestly, I don’t really remember. I played too much this game, and I used to have too many mods too. I know I have tried everything above prince at least once, and I know I never finished on deity (but I used to play some previous civ games on deity). Also I have a lot of embarrassing last minute defeats on King. Now I just don’t see any reason to play above what I'm comfortable with.

I am really curious, from your experience, at what turn (standard speed) does the AI usually win on king? that specific game you mentioned, at what turn did you have the last minute defeat? From lots of testing we know that Deity wins usually around T300-T350 standard speed.

 

[oSiyeza]

I really recommend beginners begin with Deity, as it is a moderate difficulty for beginners. My first game is on Deity and a 233-turn SV, my second game is on Deity with a 196-turn SV. After that I've never finished a game later than 210 turns.

I think he is like the weird uncle that keeps talking about the war in dinner, and how you young people are useless

I haven't lost a single game on Deity in either 5 or 6 (after getting gutted initially by Deity AI in 5. Took me about 4 or 5 tries to win I think). I keep asking for people to post impossible starts, but it never happens.

Even when I commit to not-rerolling, not reloading, not exploiting the AI, I still finish around T200-T250.

Yes; I should said, he is commited to not reloading, not overchoping (I think he almost never does), not exploiting the AI; but im aware he gives up on bad starts.

Also, thinking on how competitive my cousin is. As you seem to be an extremely dedicated player, I think I should not tell him about you

No offense, but when people say something like "a lot of Deity players reroll and save scum!!" you are just rationalizing your own failure. It's okay to not play at Deity, honestly Deity isn't much harder than Emperor or Immortal. It's just artificial difficulty.

Not offended, but while I'm aware many people does actually not save scum. Many people probably do.

I think It is not an unfair assumption at all to say that no more than 1% of players have ever won a single deity game without using exploits or save scuming.

I admit I have not any actual numbers to back this, but I’m well aware of how much the meta chopping OP and the pantheon exploit was a thing in this community before they were fixed.

And you only need to see the "Elite" youtube players so how much of re-roller AI exploiters they all are.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I don't think save-scumming or rerolling is a reason for scorn. Neither is playing on Prince or Warlord. People hating on re-rolling and savescumming are being a bit hypocritical in my eyes. Savescumming is a valuable tool for learning lessons and exploring game-mechanics. If it was not for people constantly reloading and testing we would not have the beautiful information that this website proves. I myself have figured out quite some information that wasn't publicly known exclusively by trying out stuff via reloading.

Similair with the AI "exploiting" you mention, I think this is denounced for no reason at all. If a game gives me an inherent advantage, why shouldn't I take it? It is incredibly arbitrary whether chopping/taking the AIs gold via deals is considered an exploit or just a regular game-mechanic. I think people mostly denounce these things because they don't want to do them, or because they cannot do them. Both are bad reasons.

There is nothing inherently wrong with taking the AIs gold, just like there is nothing inherently wrong with forcing the AI into a friendship for 200 turns so that they can never attack you. You never see players denounce that behavior, do you?`It's just as much of an "exploit", but people do not consider it one, mostly...

Similiarly, people consider effective chopping an exploit, but no one would ever say that rushing Feudalism or getting an early Pingala 3 is an exploit. Both of these are super strong mechanics/strategies, far stronger than others. But only one of them is denounced. Only one of them requires major planning and skill in execution.

And you only need to see the "Elite" youtube players so how much of re-roller AI exploiters they all are.

unpopular opinion: There is literally not a single good player doing Civ 6 on YouTube. if you know a channel, please post it. I personally like GamerGrampz, but he routinely finishes slower than I do. Even legends of old like Marbozir do pretty badly and make lots of decision that make me bang my head against the wall. I am really curious which YouTubers you consider "elite".

But I agree definitely that a lot of Civ YouTubers reroll starts for hours. They still mostly suck, though. Imho the only really good Civ 6 YouTuber was @civtrader6, but he has not even played R&F or GS.

I also agree with your assumption that only about 1% of players have finished Deity without save-scumming, though that is pretty meaningless imho. It is a matter of fact that only a very small portion of players even try Deity, that is what matters. How and if they win it, I don't really care.

 

[Casworon]

I think It is not an unfair assumption at all to say that no more than 1% of players have ever won a single deity game without using exploits or save scuming.

It's when i read things like this that my internal voice just goes, what?

I don't use exploits and i never save scum. I also never chop really, or at-least chop very rarely compared to other players. If this is true then it would suggest that i am in the top 1% of players, but i don't feel like i am in the top 1% of players at all. I can point to many people in this forum i would claim are better players than me.

I in-fact play very sloppily, because i know i can get away with it and still win.

I would be very curious to get the actual numbers on this. I'm not sure Steam achievements are the best source of info. Many players buy games and never get around to ever playing them, so that already massively skews the results.

On the topic of elite You-tuber's i do get annoyed a bit when they change the maps advanced settings to make the game better for them. Making a cold world when playing Canada so there are more tundra tile's for example. But i like sticking to some standard settings. Which for Civ VI for me is Diety, Standard Size, Continents, standard speed.

But i am always scouring the workshop to find ways to make the game more engaging and challenging for me. And i have to give a shout out to the modder's, there are some really creative mods out there for increasing the challenge.

 

[oSiyeza]

I don't think save-scumming or rerolling is a reason for scorn. Neither is playing on Prince or Warlord. People hating on re-rolling and savescumming are being a bit hypocritical in my eyes. Savescumming is a valuable tool for learning lessons and exploring game-mechanics. If it was not for people constantly reloading and testing we would not have the beautiful information that this website proves. I myself have figured out quite some information that wasn't publicly known exclusively by trying out stuff via reloading.

You are right, it is not a reason for scorn. But if a player does use constant save scumming and re-rolling in their plays. It is hypocritical if they complain on how easy the game is or are showing off on how they can easily beat the game.

We are both at 400 hours, but I played my second game on Deity and haven't gone lower since. Just incredibly how wildly different our experiences are.

You are totally right. The game allows actually for a lot of style types of players and it is actually quite cool how we as a community barely agree on anything.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

You are right, it is not a reason for scorn. But if a player does use constant save scumming and re-rolling in their plays. It is hypocritical if they complain on how easy the game is or are showing off on how they can easily beat the game.

Good point, I agree. Now the question is whether these people who only win Deity via exploiting, but simultaneously call it easy actually exists, or whether they are made out of straw

You are totally right. The game allows actually for a lot of style types of players and it is actually quite cool how we as a community barely agree on anything.

I agree 100%, and I actually really respect people who roleplay or find new strategies. In Civ 5 it was players like that who showed that Honor, Piety and Liberty were just as viable as Trad if done correctly.

heh, get it?

It's when i read things like this that my internal voice just goes, what?

I don't use exploits and i never save scum. I also never chop really, or at-least chop very rarely compared to other players. If this is true then it would suggest that i am in the top 1% of players, but i don't feel like i am in the top 1% of players at all. I can point to many people in this forum i would claim are better players than me.

if you have won Deity, you are in the top 1% of players. if you have won before T200, you are in the top 1% of players.

This is Civ 6, not Dark Souls. People play this game for different reasons than challenge. Very few people play this game the way you and I do.

There was a thread recently that showed that more than 90% of the playerbase never, ever go to war, unless attacked. Just so you can put things in perspective. Most of the playerbase like to Sim City with Wonders.

 

[oSiyeza]

It's when i read things like this that my internal voice just goes, what?

I don't use exploits and i never save scum. I also never chop really, or at-least chop very rarely compared to other players. If this is true then it would suggest that i am in the top 1% of players, but i don't feel like i am in the top 1% of players at all. I can point to many people in this forum i would claim are better players than me.

I in-fact play very sloppily, because i know i can get away with it and still win.

I would be very curious to get the actual numbers on this. I'm not sure Steam achievements are the best source of info. Many players buy games and never get around to ever playing them, so that already massively skews the results.

On the topic of elite You-tuber's i do get annoyed a bit when they change the maps advanced settings to make the game better for them. Making a cold world when playing Canada so there are more tundra tile's for example. But i like sticking to some standard settings. Which for Civ VI for me is Diety, Standard Size, Continents

The only info seam gives is that cryptic "5.3% have won at deity" number. We cant be sure on how many players have or have not used exploits. But we know for sure people were aware of the exploits, and for sure many people used them to get the achievements.

I actually think you are on the top 1% players. For sure you can point to some people better than you, but this is because you are an elite players in a comunity of dedicated fans, that you probably know many others like you.

Good point, I agree. Now the question is whether these people who only win Deity via exploiting, but simultaneously call it easy actually exists, or whether they are made out of straw

They exist, go to youtube.

Youtubers (and their popularity) are an interesting source. Because gives us an insight on this "atention seeking - achievement obsessed - pathological shortcut sef deception " culture of videogames, that actually exists.

Also, Civ is not special. This happens in all videogames. Faking speed runs on videogames has been a thing since speedrunning has been a thing. They do it for boosting their ego, or because is an actual addictive behavior, or maybe other reasons; but they do it. I mean, if you play any online game you know that there are communities out there, so toxic that players invest hundreds of hours only to ruin the experience of others.

From the moment knowledge of how to cheat gets out there. I assure you many people will start cheating. Even we recognize this. People has been complaining about the pantheon exploit for months. Because people used it. Even single player gamers complain about it, because if it is available they will use it, and they don’t want to. We spoin ourselves all the time even if we know is not worth it.

I tell you that deity save scum happens, and I tell you that I have done it in Civ V. Cause if you invest 10 hours in a Deity game and you have a bad time that ruins something you have been working for, you can be sure many people will feel the actual need to go back and fix it.

 

[Basajaun]

There was a thread recently that showed that more than 90% of the playerbase never, ever go to war, unless attacked. Just so you can put things in perspective. Most of the playerbase like to Sim City with Wonders.

Thats me baby I prefer building peaceful sprawling empires. If I get early aggression I usually overreact and wipe them out from existence too so I can carry on with my game. Ideally before meeting any other AIs, for diplomatic purposes.
As a matter of fact, I have done quite a few Maori-Terra games where the only ones touching the old continent ground where my traders or the occasional scout.

 

[superpowerfixer]

I really don't see the point in complaining about difficulty or ai.
The series will never have a functioning ai and dificulty ever again and you are gonna have to deal with it.The new fans don't like those things and they are the majority now.
Oh and forget about mods ever fixing those things anymore.

 

[oSiyeza]

I really don't see the point in complaining about difficulty or ai.
The series will never have a functioning ai and dificulty ever again and you are gonna have to deal with it.The new fans don't like those things and they are the majority now.
Oh and forget about mods ever fixing those things anymore.

Don’t be so fatalist. Is obvious that they are putting some effort on it. I mean what other game feature has been tuned and updated in every game patch the game had so far? Maybe is not a priority. But, many people care and many companies invest in AI.

 

[Civrinn]

I really don't see the point in complaining about difficulty or ai.
The series will never have a functioning ai and dificulty ever again and you are gonna have to deal with it.The new fans don't like those things and they are the majority now.
Oh and forget about mods ever fixing those things anymore.

Gonna disagree here, if this was true there wouldn't be a strong constant population playing Civ 5 still. You can verify that on steam numbers. For me I just wonder why the devs can't work enough to give to both camps. If that means charging 100+ dollars for the game then so be it. (Let's face it games have been 50 or 60 bucks for a while now). But yes I'd say for now and probably 7 will have a similar outcome. It'll take a while before lifelong Civ fans finally stop blindly giving money away for content they know will be average at best. I kinda think of it in the way of PoE versus D3. D3 everyone pretty much told the "hardcore fans" that wasn't the way people play anymore. Fast forward to today and I doubt D3 generates much income. PoE is still very popular and with cosmetics probably does circles around D3 sales.

I think my main gripe is this: if people want an AI but Firaxis doesn't want to hire people to code it, can we meet in the middle somewhere on price so I can go back to buying good iterations of Civ?