Difficulty levelvel

[Casworon]

I mean if people want to assume dishonesty then there is literally nothing more that can be said. The entire discussion is pointless.

I would like to believe everyone here is being honest and is approaching the discussion with good intentions, and i will continue to act as though that's the case. Otherwise there is literally no point in discussing the game at all

The best we can do is honestly express our experiences with the game and then compare them to see the area's where we match and where we don't.

 

[oSiyeza]

I do think so, actually. There is definitely a group of people who exclusively play on Deity, even on this very forum.

Fair enough.

I was referring to that I don’t think those people have a group identity, or a code of conduct, or behavioral common traits per se. And when saying that, I was thinking about that 5% of players that have won at deity at least once.

The group you define is much more specific, so maybe there is some group identity there.

I don’t know... are you a member? can you tell us about your secret meetings? Do you have a special handshake?

I mean if people want to assume dishonesty then there is literally nothing more that can be said. The entire discussion is pointless.

I would like to believe everyone here is being honest and is approaching the discussion with good intentions, and i will continue to act as though that's the case.

The best we can do is honestly express our experiences with the game and then compare them to see the area's where we match and where we don't.

Also fair enough. However:

Deity is absurdly easy. There's no challenge to be found in Civ 6.

I really recommend beginners begin with Deity, as it is a moderate difficulty for beginners. My first game is on Deity and a 233-turn SV, my second game is on Deity with a 196-turn SV. After that I've never finished a game later than 210 turns.

Some of my firends saying that ai is not building any units even on diety they can just build couple of wariors archers and go smash the wole map is that true?

...

I dont think honesy is applied to everyone here

Also note that you can think honeslty that deity is ok for someone that never has played a civ game, but can can also be honestly deceiving yourself cause you are exploiting the game

 

[ombak]

I really feel we have to separate "exploit" and define it if we want that part of the conversation to be productive. As it is it will just lead to further disagreement.

As for the posts explaining how to win deity: the tldr may be simple, but yes, there is a lot that is taken for granted in any step-by-step how to win deity list. For one, there's a map and for two there are (usually) multiple AI doing things. What happens if you don't get a city in this spot? Don't get 10 cities by turn N? How much do you have to micromanage? (EDIT: And not only that, but what do you mean by micromanage? Do you apply it to or all things, or just some?) Is that even fun? Questions from actual decisions in the moment to how an individual approaches a game and how to communicate with them.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I really feel like that playing (and winning) on Deity is nothing but a conscious decision. Beating Deity does not require any real skill at all as you do not need to anything but follow a set of very simple guidelines. Deviating from basic rules, playing horrible starts and going for speed runs are much different - this is where skills and knowledge take the wheel - but any player who can follow instructions can consistently win on Deity without any real effort and without any exploits.

The recipe for winning a T250-300 peaceful Science Victory is roughly as follows:
0. Pick a good science civ (Korea, Maya for example)
1. Get a decent start (I know that rerolling is frowned upon, but now we are talking about the hardest difficulty of the game. Making sure that you get a decent-ish start (a lux, one or two 2p2f tiles) should not be considered a capital sin - of course, if you get more experience, you will never need to reroll at all.
2. Scout - Settler - Warrior - Builder - Settler and buy a Monument.
3. Plant Pingala in your capital, and move around Magnus around your cities and build all available Science buildings using the boosted chops.
4. Pay some minimal attention to district placement (e.g. place the Campi in the mountains)
5. Immediately send delegations to the AIs and befriend them as soon as possible. Always renew friendships and go for Alliances when available.
6. Build Ancestral Hall, and settle 8-10 cities by T100. If you are lagging behind on Settler production, chop them with Magnus. Settlement locations should be based on the availability of at least a few choppable resources.
7. Build a Campus with all Science buildings and a CH / Harbor with tier 1 building in all of your cities.
8. Send trade routes to good gold yields, and use the trade route bonus cards.
9. Sell everything to the AI (favor, extra luxuries, strategic resources, alliances.
10. Pseudo-beeline Rocketry and after that research everything. Pay attention to Eurekas and switch out of techs that can realistically be boosted.
11. Aim for Political Philosophy, Feudalism, Exploration and Suffrage, use Classical Republic, Merchant Republic and Democracy. Use Science and Commerce boosting cards.
12. Specialize spies on siphoning funds and keep them occupied in enemy capitals.
13. Your gold should be spent on purchasing buildings but you should save at least 7200 gold for a Spaceport purchase.
14. Develop a Spaceport city that has 10-15 pop, 3-4 mines and an IZ (this is usually the capital, but it's even better if you can develop a second city). From the middle game, send all traders from this city. Use Reina to buy a Spaceport, focus on production and complete all space projects.
15. Build Royal Society in the Government Plaza, and use a worker every turn for speeding up the projects. Boom, you are done.
+1. You shouldn't really care for military. Build a few units for defensive purposes in the ancient era, upgrade them for the Eurekas but your defense should rely on your Alliances, not on your units.

I believe that this makeshift rundown can be followed by everyone who has a basic understanding of the game systems - if you have played more than 100 hours, than you should possess the skills for following these instructions. And now I get to my original point: while none of these items are set in stone, going for a Deity victory (at least at the very first tries) certainly limits the players choices and possible actions and requires them to play methodically (do chores). Personally, I think that a fair amount of players are simply not looking for this gameplay experience and therefore do not advance up to the highest difficulties - but they certainly could, if they would want to put in the effort. (I would gladly assist anyone lurking in this thread if they would want to try a Deity win.) Obviously, each of us find different things fun - for some people the fun can be found on King, for others, maybe not on Deity.

How quickly are you getting your first governor? And is it Pingala?

 

[Casworon]

I think a problem is that most of these moment to moment decisions are usually made very quickly and almost unconsciously when you have had lot's of time in the game, and most importantly not feeling challenged. Which is why most advice on how to do it take's the form of general strategy and a 'well you kinda... just do it'. But this isn't related to just Civ. I know personally this disconnect happens in so many areas in life where people can't understand why other people are struggling with something and they are just like, 'well you kinda just do it? i don't get why it's difficult'.

Actually that's interesting to think about. Are there any studies on this? I wouldn't be surprised if mid level performers in something are better at teaching beginners and then high performers better at teaching mid level performers but being abysmal at teaching complete beginners because of that disconnect.

Comparing my experience playing Vox Populi to Civ VI is like night and day. I know in Vox i need to sit and think through all my minute decisions very carefully, because if i make a mistake i will be punished for them and very likely lose the game. That tension simply doesn't exist for me for Civ VI. That's why players take on challenges such as to win under 200 turns etc. Because that is the only way to bring back this tension where every decision counts, because simply playing Deity isn't enough to bring on this 'every decision is win or lose' tension.

Whether you personally find this 'every decision is win or lose' tension enjoyable must just be a personal thing about you as a player. I know personally that if i can just sail through without really thinking and go into autopilot mode i will. If i can play lazily i will and then i don't enjoy the experience of playing as much. For me it's fun when i have to really think about things. Otherwise i'm just going through the motions and it just feels kinda pointless.

 

[ombak]

I think a problem is that most of these moment to moment decisions are usually made very quickly and almost unconsciously when you have had lot's of time in the game, and most importantly not feeling challenged. Which is why most advice on how to do it take's the form of general strategy and a 'well you kinda... just do it'. But this isn't related to just Civ. I know personally this disconnect happens in so many areas in life where people can't understand why other people are struggling with something and they are just like, 'well you kinda just do it? i don't get why it's difficult'.

That is exactly what I was moving towards. And your next point is good too:

Actually that's interesting to think about. Are there any studies on this? I wouldn't be surprised if mid level performers in something are better at teaching beginners and then high performers better at teaching mid level performers but being abysmal at teaching complete beginners because of that disconnect.

In my experience this is very true.

One of the best analogies (though far from perfect) might be learning a language. Native speakers take a ton of things for granted. To the point that a non-native speaker can usually offer far better insight into how to improve.

Comparing my experience playing Vox Populi to Civ VI is like night and day. I know in Vox i need to sit and think through all my minute decisions very carefully, because if i make a mistake i will be punished for them and very likely lose the game. That tension simply doesn't exist for me for Civ VI. That's why players take on challenges such as to win under 200 turns etc. Because that is the only way to bring back this tension where every decision counts, because simply playing Deity isn't enough to bring on this 'every decision is win or lose' tension.

But again, different things are challenging in different ways, it's not just one straight line. A solid example was already put forth in this thread: winning on Immortal or Emperor being sometimes more difficult because it presents you with fewer things to steal form the AI to use to your advantage.

Whether you personally find this 'every decision is win or lose' tension enjoyable must just be a personal thing about you as a player. I know personally that if i can just sail through without really thinking and go into autopilot mode i will. If i can play lazily i will and then i don't enjoy the experience of playing as much. For me it's fun when i have to really think about things. Otherwise i'm just going through the motions and it just feels kinda pointless.

To use my experience as an example, with Civ I oscillate between sometimes I want to pay close attention to every decision, sometimes I don't. And again, it's not a straight line where one day it's at the top, one day at the bottom. I could be interested in challenging myself a little more with religion instead of just using what Faith I have to buy other things. But that doesn't mean I'll be applying that deliberate approach to every decision point in my game.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Fair enough.
I don’t know... are you a member? can you tell us about your secret meetings? Do you have a special handshake?

Man, I wish. My cult never took off, no idea why. People are so averse to black magick and human sacrifice nowadays, damn progressives I tell ya.

Whether you personally find this 'every decision is win or lose' tension enjoyable must just be a personal thing about you as a player. I know personally that if i can just sail through without really thinking and go into autopilot mode i will. If i can play lazily i will and then i don't enjoy the experience of playing as much. For me it's fun when i have to really think about things. Otherwise i'm just going through the motions and it just feels kinda pointless.

I feel you so much. Every game of Civ 6 past T50 is just "going through the motions". I'm only really playing against my own finish times, and it's never been different for me.

 

[Vizurok]

How quickly are you getting your first governor? And is it Pingala?

Well, the sooner the better. Personally, I always try to hit the boosts for both Early Empire and State Workforce even if it means that I am delaying the Governor for a few turns. The rule of thumb for hitting Political Philosophy is T50, so the first governor civic should be completed by T35-40.

I usually take Magnus first as I tend to go for the Pyramids and the Oracle (but he is useful for just generic chopping as well) but the second promotion always goes for Pignala. Ideally, there should be only a few turns of difference between unlocking the first two governor slots, so the choice does not really matter.

 

[Archon_Wing]

People that say "deity is super easy" or "I recomend deity for beginers"...

But I want to flex and I have nothing of substance to say.

Nobody:
That person: But it's already t150 and the game is over

 

[oSiyeza]

Man, I wish. My cult never took off, no idea why. People are so averse to black magick and human sacrifice nowadays, damn progressives I tell ya.

I like taking the god of the sea pantheon, so I can name my religion the Esoteric Order of Dagon

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Deity will be near impossible for a brand new player who has no experience with Civ.
Just like anything else, Civ has a learning curve.
Watch instructional videos and or read strategy guides.
The more you play the more you learn.
Eventually, the brand new player will be in here posting how easy this stupid game really is.
Is it time for me to give Steam my credit card number again or what??

 

[riddleofsteel]

Well, the sooner the better. Personally, I always try to hit the boosts for both Early Empire and State Workforce even if it means that I am delaying the Governor for a few turns. The rule of thumb for hitting Political Philosophy is T50, so the first governor civic should be completed by T35-40.

I usually take Magnus first as I tend to go for the Pyramids and the Oracle (but he is useful for just generic chopping as well) but the second promotion always goes for Pignala. Ideally, there should be only a few turns of difference between unlocking the first two governor slots, so the choice does not really matter.

Interesting. I think I'm usually quite a bit slower than that.

 

[Vizurok]

Interesting. I think I'm usually quite a bit slower than that.

You shouldn't fret about that. These numbers are nothing but a benchmark for your thinking - I would say that a sub-T65 Political Philosophy will work just fine.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

All you need to do is follow a popular strategy and survive the first 50 turns and the game is over.

Yes, however when you see people constantly winning between turn 125-150 posting up 800 culture per turn on turn 100 you start thinking to yourself that you really suck at this game

 

[riddleofsteel]

You shouldn't fret about that. These numbers are nothing but a benchmark for your thinking - I would say that a sub-T65 Political Philosophy will work just fine.

When you say you hit the boosts for Early Empire and State Workforce, you deliberately rush those even if they're not practical at the time? Like cranking out a worker and having them improve three tiles in the first few turns?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

When you say you hit the boosts for Early Empire and State Workforce, you deliberately rush those even if they're not practical at the time? Like cranking out a worker and having them improve three tiles in the first few turns?

I never feel like I have to rush any of these boosts, I get all of them from doing what I always do. Builder is always either second/third in my BO, or I get one from a ruin, or I rushbuy one, or I get the inspo from a ruin. Early Empire I always get automatically for settling two early expos. State Workforce you get for your first Campus/Holy Site. I don't have to go "out of my way" for these boosts. But yes, your first builder should always improve 3 tiles instead of chop, imho!

 

[Vizurok]

When you say you hit the boosts for Early Empire and State Workforce, you deliberately rush those even if they're not practical at the time? Like cranking out a worker and having them improve three tiles in the first few turns?

The answer provided by @yung.carl.jung seems just fine for me. Just one note to add: if you are lucky enough with the map, the three worker actions will also serve as three Eurekas (Irrigation, Bronze Working and The Wheel). Based on my experience, two of these improvements will be available for you on any map (a farmable resource and a mine / quarry), so usually you are only "wasting" one charge for an improvement that does not profit you immediately in early game.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I never feel like I have to rush any of these boosts, I get all of them from doing what I always do. Builder is always either second/third in my BO, or I get one from a ruin, or I rushbuy one, or I get the inspo from a ruin. Early Empire I always get automatically for settling two early expos. State Workforce you get for your first Campus/Holy Site. I don't have to go "out of my way" for these boosts. But yes, your first builder should always improve 3 tiles instead of chop, imho!

Right on. What do you mean by "settling two early expos"?

 

[Casworon]

Firaxis say all the time that they read these forums and they have even made posts here occasionally or liked posts occasionally so we know they are watching.

There is always the chance that Firaxis will introduce a new difficulty setting for us, perhaps a diety+ or some other 'Extreme mode' that handles difficulty in a different way. This on it's own would breathe so much life into the game at this point giving a load more best times to aim for, seeing how different civilisations can approach this new difficulty in different ways etc etc.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Right on. What do you mean by "settling two early expos"?

By that I meant building two settlers before T30. Basically I never grow my capital to 6 pop for Early Empire. I have my capital at 4 and my first expansions at 2, or my capital at three and two expansions at 1 population. Settling to cities before T30 is very important for me, because as soon as I get Ancestral Hall I want to produce Settlers in all three of my cities, and for that my 2 expansions need to 1) have built a worker and have tiles improved) 2) be at least 2 pop, preferably bigger. Getting your first 2 expansions asap will mean that Settler production with the policy card is that much more effective. Building a settler in your cap vs. building a settler in all 3 of your cities makes a huge difference, and the policy card pays off more!

Firaxis say all the time that they read these forums and they have even made posts here occasionally or liked posts occasionally so we know they are watching.

There is always the chance that Firaxis will introduce a new difficulty setting for us, perhaps a diety+ or some other 'Extreme mode' that handles difficulty in a different way. This on it's own would breathe so much life into the game at this point giving a load more best times to aim for, seeing how different civilisations can approach this new difficulty in different ways etc etc.

Agree. Or just modify existing Deity since barely anyone plays it anyway. It's all about throwing us a bone, no matter how small. Maybe it is the AI building more campuses, maybe it is the .dll. Right now I would be happy for anything that isn't "shiny new toy" or apocalypse extravaganza.