Supernatural?

[Adler17]

I think even the word is misleading. In nature nothing works out of the natural laws. The only question is, if the laws were discovered yet...

Adler

 

[Quasar1011]

What?
First things first - we can't "detect" any dimensions beyond the usual 3+1. The extra dimensions we here about are theoretical constructs required by some models. They might really be there, or they might not, but in either case they are not, as yet, observed phenomena.

Actually, there is. I point to: UFOs. The evidence is that some of these objects are real, but they are not physical. Some UFOs have the ability to defy the physical laws of our universe. Whether or not our video and photographic instruments can detect them is still up for debate. It appears that some UFOs are operating in another dimension, but are visible in ours.
"Detect" and measure are 2 different things. A good detective also relies on eyewitness accounts. How many people have ever seen a UFO? Who has a good explanation for their existence?

I believe I do, and it fits right in with the topic of this supernatural thread: many UFOs are piloted by demons.

Consider a can of worms opened.

 

[The Last Conformist]

OK.

i) What would consistute evidence that something is real, but not physical?
ii) We determine the laws of physics by observing how objects behave. It's not possible to determine that something breaks those laws, since the effect would be indistinguishible from the laws being different.
iii) What heck does it mean that something is operating in another dimension (apparently only one!!!), but visible in ours?!?
iv) Where did measurement enter the picture?

 

[Falcon02]

OK.
ii) We determine the laws of physics by observing how objects behave. It's not possible to determine that something breaks those laws, since the effect would be indistinguishible from the laws being different.

That's not totally, true, if a large object effortlessly passes through an obviously solid object (ie. brick wall) that would be defying the laws as we know it, and would be distinguishable as such. However, it does not neccisarily mean other dimentional either, just there may be some loophole in the laws which we haven't discovered till now.

iii) What heck does it mean that something is operating in another dimension (apparently only one!!!), but visible in ours?!?

Assuming we higher dimentional beings exist and interact with our 3 (or 4 including time) dimentional world, I think it can best be described with that "Flatland" book mentioned earlier. If there were a two dimentional plane of existance, and you were to place your hand in it, the beings on that plane would see this huge thing, they would not see your whole hand, just one two-dimentional slice. It would also appear to come out of no where (growing from nothing, at the very tip to this huge thing at the palm).

Though all of this is highly theoretical.

 

[The Last Conformist]

That's not totally, true, if a large object effortlessly passes through an obviously solid object (ie. brick wall) that would be defying the laws as we know it, and would be distinguishable as such.

It would violate what we think we know of the laws of physics, yes. But you can't tell whether this is because our understanding is wrong, or because the object actually does break the laws of physics.

(Of course, the entirely of empirical science builds on the assumption that in such cases, it's our understanding that fails.)

Assuming we higher dimentional beings exist and interact with our 3 (or 4 including time) dimentional world, I think it can best be described with that "Flatland" book mentioned earlier. If there were a two dimentional plane of existance, and you were to place your hand in it, the beings on that plane would see this huge thing, they would not see your whole hand, just one two-dimentional slice. It would also appear to come out of no where (growing from nothing, at the very tip to this huge thing at the palm).

That's trivial. But if the same were true of UFOs they'd be in our dimensions. What we see as an UFO might be a 3D section of a 4D object going thru our 3D surface, but it cannot simultaneously be that and not be in our 3D-space. You can't put your finger thru a ring without having some part of your finger being in the 2D surface defined by the plane of the ring.

 

[Quasar1011]

iii) What heck does it mean that something is operating in another dimension (apparently only one!!!), but visible in ours?!?

I can see that people are taking each word I post very literally, and that is a good thing. Keeps me on my toes. "operating in another dimension (apparently only one!!!)," is not quite what I meant to say. Yes, the UFO in question would be operating in more than one dimension. The easiest explanation goes back to the cosmic string theory that I have referred to earlier.

Mathematical constructs within this theory suggest that, immediately after the big bang, 10 dimensions were created. These would be 3 sets of length, width, and height; plus the dimension of time. Earth resides in 4 of these dimensions. It is part of the physical universe. But there is another part of the universe- the other 6 dimensions.

The cosmic string theory postulates that the other 6 dimensions are wrapped around our 4 dimensions. It is therefore not possible to draw a good chart or diagram of this relationship between the 2 sections of the universe. But, let's begin with what we can picture. A point is a singularity; it has no dimensions. The cosmic string theory proposes that the dimensions, instead of being connected by an infinite number of infinitesimally small points, are connected by infinitesimally small "strings". These would be something like rotating rubber bands. Anyway, move a point and you get a line. That's one dimension. Rotate the line at a right-angle, and you can eventually draw a square, having two dimensions. Rotate the square at a right-angle, and you can picture a box having 3 dimensions.

Now it gets tricky. To get to the 4th, 5th and 6th dimensions (or 5th, 6th, and 7th, since I like to think of time as the 4th dimension), you would need to rotate the box at a dimensional right-angle. We cannot picture this, but mathematics tells us it is possible. Here is the kicker- the other 2 sets of dimensions occupy exactly the same space as ours, at the same time- only at dimensional right-angles!

This can be demonstrated mathematically in string theory, but is much too complicated to go into here. It is also mathematically possible to show that travel between one set of dimensions and another, could indeed occur if the right conditions are met. I say travel, but it is even possible that travel within another set of dimensions could occur, and be viewable or have consequences in our universe- in the same space that the sets of dimensions share.

It could be that the 3 sets of dimensions are: Heaven, Earth, and Hell. Heaven and Hell, occupying the part of the universe that split off from ours right after the big bang, need not possess the same laws of physics, as our part of the universe- our 4 dimensions. Travel between such sets of dimensions is described in the Bible. Enoch and Elijah "disappeared" into Heaven. Angels suddenly appeared as if from thin air. After His resurrection, Jesus could appear and disappear at will. All of these occurrences can now be explained if the cosmic string theory is true.

Angels and demons would not normally occupy the physical universe; they would be part of the "spiritual universe", which would be one set of 3 dimensions for Heaven, and another set of 3 dimensions for Hell. On occasions when God allows it, angels or demons could cross into our dimension. This gets back to our original subject of the thread, "what is supernatural?" The spiritual universe is supernatural.

i) What would consistute evidence that something is real, but not physical?

Some UFOs appear to defy the laws of physics. One explanation has already been given for this: mankind has not learned all the laws of physics yet, and these UFO beings are much, much more advanced than us.

However, I believe that the evidence shows that such UFOs are piloted by demons, who are out to seduce mankind into a great delusion. The evidence comes from interviewing those that have had a "close encounter of the 3rd kind". The aliens are apparently passing information to such contactees. The messages take one of 2 forms: 1) benevolent aliens are here to bring us into a new age, where the problems of hunger, was, disease, and the like, will be solved; or 2) benevolent aliens are here to warn us of hostile aliens who desire to destroy the Earth.

In either case, the message is the same: the aliens tell the contactees that Earth must dispose of its silly religions, and unite as one, so that the Earth itself may survive. Whether the threat is said to be of man's own making, or the threat is a hostile alien race, makes no difference. Mankind must unite as one, and this is the message the aliens are telling the contactees.

That the UFO believers have been contacted by some being from somewhere is beyond question. The methods used by the aliens are similar to those used by demons in the past: hypnotic trances, false memory implantation, etc. These are tools of the supernatural. This is why I say the evidence is that UFOs are real, but not physical. They are real and supernatural!

That's enough to chew on for now. But stay tuned...

 

[Perfection]

But science is beginning to be able to detect and explain some of the supernatural, mostly through mathematics and physics. If we inhabit dimensions 1-4, the supernatural would be in dimensions 5-7, and 8-10. And perhaps more than what we can currently detect.

But they'd still be scientifically explainable, therefore they are natural phenomena.

It could be that the 3 sets of dimensions are: Heaven, Earth, and Hell. Heaven and Hell, occupying the part of the universe that split off from ours right after the big bang, need not possess the same laws of physics, as our part of the universe- our 4 dimensions. Travel between such sets of dimensions is described in the Bible. Enoch and Elijah "disappeared" into Heaven. Angels suddenly appeared as if from thin air. After His resurrection, Jesus could appear and disappear at will. All of these occurrences can now be explained if the cosmic string theory is true.

Angels and demons would not normally occupy the physical universe; they would be part of the "spiritual universe", which would be one set of 3 dimensions for Heaven, and another set of 3 dimensions for Hell. On occasions when God allows it, angels or demons could cross into our dimension. This gets back to our original subject of the thread, "what is supernatural?" The spiritual universe is supernatural.

However, if angels demons, and god all follow an understandable set of rules that govern thier behavior, they are not supernatural by my definition, because there is clearly a means in which they can be scientifically evidenced.

God can be a natural phenomena just as much as anything else, provided it has rules governing its behavior.

 

[Quasar1011]

But they'd still be scientifically explainable, therefore they are natural phenomena.

However, if angels demons, and god all follow an understandable set of rules that govern thier behavior, they are not supernatural by my definition, because there is clearly a means in which they can be scientifically evidenced.

God can be a natural phenomena just as much as anything else, provided it has rules governing its behavior.

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that people being raised from the dead, or walking on water, or changing water into wine are natural phenomena?

 

[Fifty]

Near as I can figure, when people talk about supernatural they are referring to things apart from common or societally accepted notions of "everyday nature"

When you talk about supernatural in terms of the literal definition, you should keep in mind that the word does not retain its literal meaning to most people.

You'll find that you often run into problems when attempting to assign literal meanings to things that do not fit their literal meanings in everyday discussions or usage.

 

[aneeshm]

What?

First things first - we can't "detect" any dimensions beyond the usual 3+1. The extra dimensions we here about are theoretical constructs required by some models. They might really be there, or they might not, but in either case they are not, as yet, observed phenomena.

Secondly, it's entirely unclear what you mean by "supernatural" here. If the extra dimensions exist, they inextricably linked to the old ones - part of the same space-time continuum. Saying they're supernatural is like saying that east-west and north-south are natural, while up-down is supernatural.

I get your point , but even if they are linked to the old ones , they may be impossible to transverse .

To put it in terms we 3-d spatial visualisers cna understand , think about it like this . Imagine a world 2 dimensions , which is in effect a plane . Now , even if there is a third dimension , but there is no way to change your coordinate relatign to the 3rd dimension , then any other plane parallel to this given one will be unaccessible to the people living in the first plane I described . Thus , the other plane will be what is romantically referred to as "the supernatural dimension/supernatural palne of existence" . So even if there is a fourth dimension , but we cannot travel across it , then any other 3-d plane which is parallel to ours can be called supernatural .

The funny part is , if the planes are not parallel , then the intersection is a line . Thus , if there are four dimensions , then the intersection between them will be a 2-d plane space which exists in both .

 

[aneeshm]

Taking this further - this means that that plane is a dimensional porthole of some sort , and that the line which is the intersection of two planes is really a crossover into the other plane . Now we're really talking sceince fiction here .

 

[Perfection]

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that people being raised from the dead, or walking on water, or changing water into wine are natural phenomena?

It can be, provided that we can investigate and explain it in a scientific manner. Naturalism is based on the idea that everything should be assumed to follow explainable scientific laws. If there are testible and repeatible scientifically investigatable reasons that explain how people can be raised from the dead, or walk on water, or change water into wine it is possible to call it natural, no matter how odd may seem.

 

[sourboy]

Strange how this thread survived after the first few replies, as the topic was answered quite simply. The further debate is interesting and close enough to the topic, however I would like to hear an expanded explanation in a new thread . Quasar1011, would you be willing to go into more depth on your perception of the various dimensions & the correlation to the religious aspects you've mentioned in another thread?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I get your point , but even if they are linked to the old ones , they may be impossible to transverse.

If they are, they're not the extra dimensions postulated by string theory (with friends; M theory, supergravitation). It's, however reminicent of the idea that "dark matter" is the gravitational effect of the matter in a (or several) parallel universes neighbouring us in a big fourth spatial dimension inaccessible to matter and non-gravitational interaction. Calling a such parallel universe "supernatural" strikes me as highly unhelpful, however.

 

[The Last Conformist]

@Quasar1011: "Cosmic string theory"? You're not confusing string theory and cosmic strings, are you?

At any rate, what you describe has little to do with string theory, or any physical theory I'm remotely familiar with. Modern versions of string theory (M theory, in the first place), postulats seven extra dimensions, and they're not inaccesible to us - the very stuff of our bodies is (according to string theory) defined by it's vibrations in the extra dimensions. Moreover, they're humonguously small - Planck-length or so. Stuffing in Heaven or Hell there would get rather cramped, even disregarding all the usual mundane stuff swishing thru all the time. Nor could they have a different set of physical laws; they're introduced as explanations of the ones we have!

If you've got any online reference for the theory you're refering to, I'd be interested.

As for UFOs, I don't see it's clear that anyone is contacting supposed UFO witnesses. But that's, I guess, a discussion for another thread.

 

[Ayatollah So]

i) What would consistute evidence that something is real, but not physical?

A stubborn, systematic pattern of exceptions in our best physical theories. E.g., "the total force acting on a mass is the sum of gravitational, electric, strong and weak nuclear forces, EXCEPT when the mass is acted on by angels..." or what have you. Where "angels" or whatever are either not explainable in any lawlike manner, or the laws that apply to them are radically different and not tightly interconnected with "physical" laws. "Physical" laws being those traditionally associated with physics.

Lunch over. Hope this makes at least some tiny bit of sense.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'd be mightily tempted to consider that proof that angels are physical ...

 

[Quasar1011]

Quasar1011, would you be willing to go into more depth on your perception of the various dimensions & the correlation to the religious aspects you've mentioned in another thread?

Please check the "God FAQ" thread, as I have gone into more detail there, on the extra-dimensionality of God. But I don't see the need for a new thread, since extra-dimensionality includes the supernatural. My point here has been: there are 3 physical/natural dimensions, 6 spiritual/supernatural dimensions (separated into 2 sets of dimensions comprising- like ours- of length, width, and height), and 1 dimension of time connecting the 3 sets of dimensions.

 

[Ayatollah So]

I'd be mightily tempted to consider that proof that angels are physical ...

Consider what to be proof? That the "laws" describing angels were radically different from anything traditionally associated with physics? Such as, "the more a person prays to Vishnu, the more likely the angels will help her, regardless of whether the prayer is spoken, regardless of distance, ..." - that would be proof that angels are physical ?

I'd say you had a very strange definition of "physical".

 

[The Last Conformist]

The laws of QM were radically different from anything traditionally associated with physics back in the day. Yet, they weren't described as "supernatural" - we instead adjusted our ideas about physics.