Adler17
Prussian Feldmarschall
I think even the word is misleading. In nature nothing works out of the natural laws. The only question is, if the laws were discovered yet...
Adler
Adler
Actually, there is. I point to: UFOs. The evidence is that some of these objects are real, but they are not physical. Some UFOs have the ability to defy the physical laws of our universe. Whether or not our video and photographic instruments can detect them is still up for debate. It appears that some UFOs are operating in another dimension, but are visible in ours.The Last Conformist said:What?
First things first - we can't "detect" any dimensions beyond the usual 3+1. The extra dimensions we here about are theoretical constructs required by some models. They might really be there, or they might not, but in either case they are not, as yet, observed phenomena.
The Last Conformist said:OK.
ii) We determine the laws of physics by observing how objects behave. It's not possible to determine that something breaks those laws, since the effect would be indistinguishible from the laws being different.
The Last Conformist said:iii) What heck does it mean that something is operating in another dimension (apparently only one!!!), but visible in ours?!?
It would violate what we think we know of the laws of physics, yes. But you can't tell whether this is because our understanding is wrong, or because the object actually does break the laws of physics.Falcon02 said:That's not totally, true, if a large object effortlessly passes through an obviously solid object (ie. brick wall) that would be defying the laws as we know it, and would be distinguishable as such.
That's trivial. But if the same were true of UFOs they'd be in our dimensions. What we see as an UFO might be a 3D section of a 4D object going thru our 3D surface, but it cannot simultaneously be that and not be in our 3D-space. You can't put your finger thru a ring without having some part of your finger being in the 2D surface defined by the plane of the ring.Assuming we higher dimentional beings exist and interact with our 3 (or 4 including time) dimentional world, I think it can best be described with that "Flatland" book mentioned earlier. If there were a two dimentional plane of existance, and you were to place your hand in it, the beings on that plane would see this huge thing, they would not see your whole hand, just one two-dimentional slice. It would also appear to come out of no where (growing from nothing, at the very tip to this huge thing at the palm).
The Last Conformist said:iii) What heck does it mean that something is operating in another dimension (apparently only one!!!), but visible in ours?!?
Some UFOs appear to defy the laws of physics. One explanation has already been given for this: mankind has not learned all the laws of physics yet, and these UFO beings are much, much more advanced than us.The Last Conformist said:i) What would consistute evidence that something is real, but not physical?
But they'd still be scientifically explainable, therefore they are natural phenomena.Quasar1011 said:But science is beginning to be able to detect and explain some of the supernatural, mostly through mathematics and physics. If we inhabit dimensions 1-4, the supernatural would be in dimensions 5-7, and 8-10. And perhaps more than what we can currently detect.
However, if angels demons, and god all follow an understandable set of rules that govern thier behavior, they are not supernatural by my definition, because there is clearly a means in which they can be scientifically evidenced.Quasar1011 said:It could be that the 3 sets of dimensions are: Heaven, Earth, and Hell. Heaven and Hell, occupying the part of the universe that split off from ours right after the big bang, need not possess the same laws of physics, as our part of the universe- our 4 dimensions. Travel between such sets of dimensions is described in the Bible. Enoch and Elijah "disappeared" into Heaven. Angels suddenly appeared as if from thin air. After His resurrection, Jesus could appear and disappear at will. All of these occurrences can now be explained if the cosmic string theory is true.
Angels and demons would not normally occupy the physical universe; they would be part of the "spiritual universe", which would be one set of 3 dimensions for Heaven, and another set of 3 dimensions for Hell. On occasions when God allows it, angels or demons could cross into our dimension. This gets back to our original subject of the thread, "what is supernatural?" The spiritual universe is supernatural.
Perfection said:But they'd still be scientifically explainable, therefore they are natural phenomena.
However, if angels demons, and god all follow an understandable set of rules that govern thier behavior, they are not supernatural by my definition, because there is clearly a means in which they can be scientifically evidenced.
God can be a natural phenomena just as much as anything else, provided it has rules governing its behavior.
The Last Conformist said:What?
First things first - we can't "detect" any dimensions beyond the usual 3+1. The extra dimensions we here about are theoretical constructs required by some models. They might really be there, or they might not, but in either case they are not, as yet, observed phenomena.
Secondly, it's entirely unclear what you mean by "supernatural" here. If the extra dimensions exist, they inextricably linked to the old ones - part of the same space-time continuum. Saying they're supernatural is like saying that east-west and north-south are natural, while up-down is supernatural.
It can be, provided that we can investigate and explain it in a scientific manner. Naturalism is based on the idea that everything should be assumed to follow explainable scientific laws. If there are testible and repeatible scientifically investigatable reasons that explain how people can be raised from the dead, or walk on water, or change water into wine it is possible to call it natural, no matter how odd may seem.Quasar1011 said:Let me get this straight. Are you saying that people being raised from the dead, or walking on water, or changing water into wine are natural phenomena?
If they are, they're not the extra dimensions postulated by string theory (with friends; M theory, supergravitation). It's, however reminicent of the idea that "dark matter" is the gravitational effect of the matter in a (or several) parallel universes neighbouring us in a big fourth spatial dimension inaccessible to matter and non-gravitational interaction. Calling a such parallel universe "supernatural" strikes me as highly unhelpful, however.aneeshm said:I get your point , but even if they are linked to the old ones , they may be impossible to transverse.
The Last Conformist said:i) What would consistute evidence that something is real, but not physical?
sourboy said:Quasar1011, would you be willing to go into more depth on your perception of the various dimensions & the correlation to the religious aspects you've mentioned in another thread?
Consider what to be proof? That the "laws" describing angels were radically different from anything traditionally associated with physics? Such as, "the more a person prays to Vishnu, the more likely the angels will help her, regardless of whether the prayer is spoken, regardless of distance, ..." - that would be proof that angels are physical ?The Last Conformist said:I'd be mightily tempted to consider that proof that angels are physical ...