SGOTM6 - Team jeffelammar

SGOTM6 - Celts. Team jeffelammar.

Welcome to your team thread for SGOTM06. I hope you enjoy the game.



Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Celts
World size - 100 wide by 130 high.
Difficulty Emperor (approximately)
Landform Contiguous Pangea

Here are a number of links you might find useful.

The Constitution
GOTM Reference Thread.
Upload a Save.
Download a save.
SGOTM06 Maintenance Thread.

This Months' sponsored variant is Cultural Celtic Communists the rules for which are as follows.

1. The only allowed governments are despotism and communism.
2. You must win by 100K victory condition.

Your save has been uploaded to the server and will become available to you on the 7th February.

How exciting! Welcome new members!

Hello Team,
Whomp here. It looks to me like a pretty shield intensive spot right off the top. 3 BG's this side of the river 4-5 total bg's, hill, 2 chops. It looks like it's going to be a pretty fertile core around this area. Lake I assume? Did anyone see Sir Pleb's spreadsheet? It may be a good thing to have and it seems soooo much simpler than Offa's.

I look forward to running with you guys. Let's have some fun!

Just a heads up I mentioned to M-B I will be out of town Wed.-Sun. and not able to focus civ.

I did check out the spreadsheets, but I am too lazy to do something so intensive, most likely. Initially, I am thinking worker two N and settler one N one NE, with possible change based on what the worker sees. I can't think of any way we would be able to find out whether we can work the cow early on, so it seems best to abandon it for the time being, and game are good but wheat is better for faster growth right at the start.

Checking in. Welcome to everyone. I'll post thoughts on the start tomorrow.

Just a warning, I've only played C3C twice now, so please be patient if I accidently suggest strategies that are PTW specific.

Greetings ... reporting for duty.

Jeffelammer - that means you've played once more than I have

The only C3C game I've played was COTM 09, which I managed to win, though only just, via diplomacy of all things .... I saw my space race was going to lose out to another civ's domination.

Will be looking to take the lead from the more experienced players, so feel free to suggest STRONGLY

@Bed_Head:
You don't think we should place our city 2 NW? I know it takes a few turns to grow (10, Isn't it?) but then we had a great position for the city, with Wheat and Game, and a minimum of 2 BG's (N and E of start pos).

At the least, I would say we move NW first - get a nice view of the land, as it were.

I agree worker N. Do we then mine BG?, and then go N and irrigate wheat? What would our truns look like for the mining and irrigation - would we irrigate wheat too early, perhaps, in which case we could road the mined BG first, then go to the wheat.

BTW - in my first attempt at foggazzing, it would SEEM that the forest square 2W,1NW has a bit of blue on it ... I'm thinking river. The Forest S1, SE2 looks to have tundra below it...

Regards tactics, what are you thinking we should go for first? Early culture that cumulates, or massive expansion, and then getting a HUGE number of cities?

CiaO 4 NoW

Getting that quick growth right away is terribly important, as it sets the pace for the rest of the game. We grow a bit faster, then we get a settler out faster. If it were a cow instead of a game, I wouldn't argue with you. However, it is a game forest, which means that for quite a few turns it will simply be acting as a bonus grassland. And, assuming that we do settler where I suggested, the worker will want to go straight to the wheat and begin irrigating, to get growth to size two in six turns instead of seven, with one wasted food.

We are all about expansion early on. In our core, we may want a few temples for happiness purposes that will also get 1000 year double early on, but our main goal is expansion and land grab.

Thanks for the response. Like I said, I'm here to lern, but I don't want to be a total passenger

No-one else with any responses?

I don't know but for some reason tile 3NE seems like it raps around a lake to me. Would it make sense to have the worker hit that mountain NE to gaze a bit. It may see a possible cow and wheat start possibilityafter 10.
Is that too late if we go worker mountain ne, bg w, mine, road, wheat?

I am a little unclear on what you are saying, and reading my beginning again, I see some room for clarification. So I'll just go over my ideas again, and hopefully that would answer your questions.

First turn: Worker N. Depending upon what is seen, the settler move may change. I think the worker will only reveal a grassland W and a plains sugar E. So, settler NE seems likeliest to me at this time.

Second turn: Worker N to wheat. Again, it depends upon what is seen, but settler N seems likeliest to me.

Third turn: Worker irrigate. Found Entremont, unless there is another food bonus visible.

Seventh turn: Worker finishes irrigation. SirPleb apparently does something I hadn't considered, and would move to irrigate an adjacent food bonus if there is one before roading. So possibly a move to irrigate next turn, or begin roading.

Ninth turn: Entremont grows to size two one turn faster because of initial wheat irrigation. Growth is the most important thing in the early game without argument.

Again, a lot of this is dependent upon what we see with scouting, and may even turn out to be the wrong move based on what our initial warrior scouting reveals. However, based on what we can see now, this plan would get us the best growth of any option, so this is the safest course of action.

By the way, no one needs to say "thanks for the response" or anything similar. This is a team, we are supposed to discuss, think, and decide as a group, and if part of the group aren't being included, there is something wrong.

I have seen that the saves are supposed to be available (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2539660#post2539660)

Anyone got it yet (anyone know where to get it? )

Jeffelammer - I think we need to confirm our opening gambit, discuss our turn orders, and consider getting going?

Is it me, or are there only 4 of us that have "reported in" ? I haven't seen denyd or CKS..


CiaO

Hello to all, just checking it.

I've played quite a few C3C games and am in the process of submitting my second 100K culture game for the HOF (on chieftain however). The number one thing I've learned is the key to winning 100K games in getting as many cities as possible as quickly as possible and getting the Temple of Artemis. With ToA, every city starts with a temple. Unlike at chieftain, we'll probably be in a tougher land grab and will need more than a couple of defenders.

As the Celts we are Agricultural & Religious and start with Pottery & Ceremonial Burial, two of the cheaper techs. If we meet someone early, we'll probably have to trade 2 for 1 to make a deal. I saw mention of pop-rushing in an different thread and we'll want to consider after our core is developed, but lets try to keep those citizens working early in the game.

I would suggest sending the worker 1NW to the mountain. That will give a much better picture of the surrounding lands. A couple of things about C3C and the agricultural. Cities on rivers get an extra food in the city center and granaries are 1/2 price (we can also treat desert tiles as plains when irrigated, though that's not an issue at present), so we need to be sure to settle on a river (fresh water). I'm thinking we might try using one food bonus (game, wheat & cow) per city for our first three cities. On emperor, we'll want to try for an early luxury if possible to ease the need for either MP's or luxury taxes. Since we have to stay in despotism, I don't see any reason to go for the republic slingshot (for those new to C3C, the first to philosophy gets a free tech, so researching code of laws, the philosophy often gets republic free). We should probably research up the bottom path to mysticism, then polytheism. If we happen to get an SGL (I didn't see any mention if they are on or off), we will need to weigh ToA or Pyramids. For those new to C3C, I'm looking for an post by SirPleib on the changes from PTW to C3C and when I find it I'll post a link.

To recap my suggestions:

1. Worker NW to check out lay of the land before moving settler
2. One food bonus each for first three cities
3. Look for local luxury to hook up asap
4. Research Mysticism then Polytheism
5. Initial build would be warrior, warrior, granary, settler

Welcome Denyd.

Hmm - nice bit of thinking ... I wasn't aware of the C3C racial changes - that obviously has quite an impact. What get's us ToA? Mysti or Poly? I'll go and check.

Jeff - what is our turn roster looking like. As I recall, we have 24 hours to pickup, and 72 hours to play, and we have to play 5 turns (except start, who plays 10?).

Given that Whomp is unavailable from Wed to Sun, should we start with him, or move him to 4th in order?

Given my inexperience, I would rather not take the start position.

Oh yes, are we going to discuss our turns heavily ( I had that habit in the last succession game I played ((a few years ago, it should be said)) ).

I like the swinging idea of the resources... should we be building the city next to resouces, as Bed_Head7 pointed out, to get our resources as early as possible? That seems like the logical step forwards?

By the way, if we download from here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

Will that launch our "start" ? I don't want to download and then find I have "got it".

CiaO

Wanderer said:

Jeff - what is our turn roster looking like. As I recall, we have 24 hours to pickup, and 72 hours to play, and we have to play 5 turns (except start, who plays 10?).

Click to expand...

Actually, we've been doing 10 turns except the start who does 20.

My take on the starting position.
1. The Cow seems to me to be a red-herring. I see no quick way to get our worker over there so it is merely a nicity rather than a power square.

2. I agree completely with Denyd. Worker NW will tell us more about the surrounding territory than anything else.

3. The most promising start to me seems to be 2NW. It gains both the wheat and the game and stays on the river.
At first the game will act as a free bonus grassland while the wheat + our trait will give us the food we need. When we get another city we chop the forest and gain the needed extra food.

4. Since we cannot go to any government other than communism, I agree with researching the bottom path.

5. Combat: I think we should definately set up for a warrior -> Gallic Sword upgrade. With a large Pangea map, we may even be able to sustain the Gallic rush into the early middle ages. As Denyd points out, our primary goal is lots of cities as soon as possible.

6. I haven't played with ToA at all but it does seem to be worth trying for. It doesn't seem to last very long, but if we concentrate on war-mongering our way along the lower MA path, we can prolong our ToA time and will be able to pick the time we trade for Education.

7. Golden Age - I think we have to plan on our GA being triggered with a GS in the mid to late AA. No sense trying to save it for a long time.

8. Research - As I said, I agree with starting along the bottom path. The big question is whether we want to accelerate or decellerate AI research.
A. Accellerate - try to drive to Communism asap.
B. Decellerate - we can't research fast, so don't let them either.
We should make that decision.

9. Roster: As I always do, I suggest it be in the order on MB's signup page.
jeffelammar
bed_head7
denyd
Whomp
CKS
Wanderer
At that point the only question is who goes first. I am willing to go. Denyd did last month and did a great job. Anyone else is welcome to say they want the first turn set. In this game it will probably be critical.

Note to the new folks: Even though my name is on the team, I haven't really been acting as leader. This is more of a democracy or republic than anything. All comments are welcome.

Wanderer said:

By the way, if we download from here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

Will that launch our "start" ? I don't want to download and then find I have "got it".

CiaO

Click to expand...

No it won't launch our "start".

In fact it is perfectly fine for all of us to download. Just do not issue ANY move orders unless it is your turn. Any move would be considered gaining spoiler info.

Later in the game it will often be valuable for multiple people to download saves to look at the stategic situation and make suggestions.

Since communism is a long ways off, I suggest slowing down research via the pointy stick.

I'm thinking each early city (say the first 4), works on getting more cities (that means granaries, settlers & workers) and subsequent cities build culture & troops (temple/library, barracks & vet warriors or GS). We'll have trouble accumulating a lot of wealth for upgrades, so getting to IW early will help.

If we can keep the AI at war, ToA will live quite a while and each new city, whether founded or captured, automatically gets a temple (2 more cpt). We should concentrate our cities, planning on them stay in the 4-6 size range (ICS if possible). Having 10 towns producing 5cpt is better than having 5 cities producing 10cpt. Troop support is 4 per every town/city/metro, so we'll be able to afford a much larger army with more cities and they'll also be able to add new culture building as they become available.

(BTW: For the new team members, welcome. I should mention I do tend to ramble alot on my posts, so pick out the nuggets you like and ignore the rest)

Great, thanks Jeff. Happy with the turn order... the only unavailability I am likely to have is at the end of April ... should be well on our way by then

The start you are talking about was the one I initially though off - but what about the point that Bed_Head raised, i.e. that the 2NW start will not, iniitally, have any bonus resouces in "area" (unless something comes out of the Fog), until after our first culture growth, which will take 10 turns ... are we happy to go that route because we are going warrior start first?

Hope you guys don't get too irritated - I tend to ask a lot of questions, especially given that this is a bit above my comfort zone.

CiaO 4 NoW

Well, jeffelammar and denyd pointed out something that I forgot, and that is that the Celts are Religious and Agricultural, not Religious and Militaristic. Even though I play more C3C, maybe I had my PTW hat on, because I was not even thinking in terms of agricultural bonus. Knowing this changing the opening strategy a bit, but not radically.

My revised moves would be something like this: Worker NW. If nothing else seen, settler heads NE. Worker N. If nothing else seen, settler heads N. Worker NE (to wheat). If nothing else seen, settle Entremont. Worker irrigates, and when Entermont hits size two four turns later, it can do four-turn growth. We get a settler out there quickly to claim anything else, as the start is food bonus rich and we don't want to wait for another granary to at least get one more city.

I am still agaisnt settling NW two squares. Unless there is something new there, which we will find out with the worker move NW to mountain, we still grow to size two in seven turns and assuming we road and mine bg first, we will grow to size three in six turns, so a total of thirteen turns before we hit size three, while settling next to the wheat gets us there in nine.

I have also been thinking more about not roading tiles immediately if there is another important job to do. This makes a lot of sense here, as rivers will eliminate the usefulness in many cases of the roads. So maybe when it does not help travel, we don't need to bother with roads at first if it will get us another settler or a granary done faster.

Now that I mention that, I think settler N, NW might be a good place to go as it gets a forest in our radius to chop for the granary, while my suggested start does not, as far as I know. This means we don't get to do any scouting with our settler NE, but it might be worth it.

As for game strategies, I am completely against building ToA. If we capture it, fine, but building it is a huge waste. We want to hit the domination limit as soon as we can, and capturing seems like the way to go to me. Yeah, we get it a bit later, and lose out on a bit of culture, but maybe that will mean more handbuilt temples. Whenever possible, hand built temples are better, as ToA temples do not experience the doubling of their cultural effect when they reach 1000 years of age. And while we have it, we cannot build any temples. Temples we built beforehand will recieve the bonus, though. If we have ToA, we are also likely to slow down our research to hold onto it longer. But we want to get to Communism as fast as possible once we have done our conquest.

My overall plan for the game would be different in other ways. Maybe research mysticism for trading purposes, or anything else that might be decent trade bait. Expand as fast as possible until we are boxed in. In shield rich areas, go barracks and then warriors. Once we have no where else to settle, hopefully iron working will be known and available. Switch most everything except cities with granaries to barracks, have them build warriors if we have funds for upgrading or prebuilding gallic swordsmen. Cities with granaries build settlers still, to fill holes and as combat settlers. These cities will build settlers the entire game.

Eventually, we will probably capture ToA. This is good. The more cities we have when we do it, the better it is, and if we focus more on expansion than building ToA and happen to capture it, then we might even make up for the lost time by having more cities that it effects. A plus here is that we can build Cathedrals very early, and they have the culture/shield as libraries, so we will want to build Cathedrals everywhere while we can. When ToA expires, we can go back and build temples again.

With this map, very early domination is quite possible. Gallic Swordsmen are amazing, and we have to take full advantage.