National Wonders - Synergies and Strategies

(I was looking for this guide, didn't see it, and decided to write one, instead. Comments, corrections welcomed.)


Let's start off with some National Wonder facts...

There are 14 National Wonders (“NW&#8221 in Civ4 BtS.

All NW’s (except Palace) generate a Great Person Point (“GPP&#8221 per turn. This can have some minor relevance if you are concerned about polluting your Great Person Farm with GPP of the wrong type.

All NW's generate some base every turn (ranging from 2 to 6), with the following exceptions: Hermitage, Ironworks, Wall Street, and West Point.

You can only have 2 NW’s (other than a Palace) per city. So, finding good pairings is important. Putting the right NWs together can be powerful – putting the wrong ones together is often wasteful, or worse, counterproductive.

National Wonders can be captured when you culture-flip AI cities, or when cities are gifted to you, but bear the following in mind:
a) If you already have the NW, the one in the AI city is destroyed;
b) If you capture a NW in this way, you can’t build another one;
c) If you lose a NW in this way (one of your cities is culture flipped), you can rebuild the NW somewhere else.

National Wonders can’t be captured via military means from the AI, unless you have dominant culture in the captured city, anyway (in which case, it’s considered a ‘recapture’ and buildings aren’t lost). And again, you can’t capture NWs you already had.

Some NW have their production sped up by certain resources
Stone: Moai Statues, Mt Rushmore, Oxford University, West Point
Marble: Hermitage, Heroic Epic, National Epic
Nothing: Palace, Wall Street, Ironworks, Forbidden Palace, Globe Theatre, Red Cross, National Park

Some NW require you to have a minimum number of other buildings and/or (in the case of the Palace and Forbidden Palace) cities. This number scales with map size – it’s 6 on standard map size (going forward, we’ll assume standard map size and Normal game speed), 7 on large maps, 8 on Huge maps, 5 on Small maps, 4 on Tiny/Duel size maps.

Palace: 4 cities
Forbidden Palace: 6 Courthouses and 8 cities
Globe Theatre: 6 Theatres
Ironworks: 6 Forges
Oxford: 6 Universities
Wall Street: 6 Banks
Red Cross: 6 Hospitals

If you are playing One City Challenge (“OCC&#8221, the multiple building prerequisites and 2-per-city limits don’t apply – you can build Ironworks with just the one Forge in your single city, and you can build up to 5 NWs in the city.


Palace: The Palace is considered a National Wonder, but it’s the oddball of the bunch. In the first place, you don’t have to build it; you start with a Palace when you found your first city (your capital). In the second place, you can (if you have enough cities) build a new Palace somewhere else even if you already have a Palace, which will destroy your original Palace and make the city with the new Palace your capital (this is sometimes worth doing; see below). In the third place, the Palace is an exception to the “2 National Wonders per city” rule – with a Palace, you can have 3 NWs in a city. Finally, if you somehow lose your capital, you get another Palace for free in your second-largest city (and if you recapture the former capital, the Palace doesn’t reappear in the liberated city).

Palaces cost 160 , make 1 citizen , provide 2 , yield 8 base and 4 base , and are considered the centre of your civilization when calculating distance-based maintenance. Those yields are awesome for something that only costs 160 – if it were possible, I’d recommend a Palace in every city. Since you can’t do that…

Consider building your Palace in a city that doesn’t run specialists – ideally, one which is and rich. This synergizes well with the Bureaucracy and multiplier when running Bureaucracy. The Bureaucracy bonus is wasted on a capital that’s mainly food-based and running specialists as opposed to working and tiles.

-OR-

Consider relocating your Palace to the centre of your civilization, especially if you started on a smallish island and have expanded to a larger landmass, or where you expanded in one direction and your capital is now on the periphery. You’ll save a bundle on maintenance.

You’ll always have a Palace somewhere in your civ. Because a Palace can go in any city without regard to other NW’s that are already there, you don’t need to worry too much about synergies, although the free produced by a Palace goes well with NWs that multiply and/or – i.e. Oxford and Wall Street.


National Epic: National Epic adds +100% to GPP output in the city, and also adds an Artist GPP every turn. This is usually considered a must-build for your Great Person farm – and in the early game, it will double your GPP output and help you to get early Great Scientists for Academies/bulbing.

Synergies: If you don’t build a lot of cottages, NE can go well with Oxford University. You’ll usually be running Scientists in your GP farm, and Oxford will double the output from these scientists (this works really well if you have early Representation as well). This pairing doesn’t work as well if you have a cottage monster city in your game – assuming you can keep the science slider relatively high, Oxford will be even more productive in a Town-rich city.

National Park can go well with NE – free specialists get their GPP doubled by NE, and the health benefits of NP can allow GP farms to get extremely large, post-Biology. Unfortunately, NP comes relatively late, and it’s often rare for any forests to be left around the early city that you probably built NE in. Still, I sometimes keep 2 forests around in my GP farm for reasons – and a GP farm should be working relatively few tiles, just the specials and other high- tiles like farmed Floodplains/Biology Grass farms. Outside of chopping for , there isn’t much reason to clear trees from the BFC of your GP farm. So, NP can give a small boost to your NE city in the late game.

Globe Theatre can help with happiness limits in your GP farm, but conventional wisdom seems to prefer GT in a drafting city.

Wall Street could be a fit with NE if you are trying to farm Merchants… but I tend to prefer WS in a Shrined city, and that may not be the same place as your NE city/GP farm.

Don’t mix NE with: Heroic Epic, Ironworks, West Point, Red Cross. You’ll probably want to be working tiles rather than running specialists in cities with those 4 NWs, and that conflicts with the specialist-heavy mix you should see in your NE city.

Heroic Epic: Heroic Epic adds +100% to Military unit in the city, and also adds an Artist GPP every turn. You’ll usually want the HE up as soon as possible, unless you plan a very peaceful game (and you have faith in your ability to keep the nastier AIs sweet). Note that you need a level 4 (10 XP) unit to build HE.

Synergies: As HE multiplies base (with respect to building units), you’ll want to put it in a city with a lot of , and add other improvements that increase base . Levees come to mind, and I personally like the Moai/HE combo. You won’t want too much water, or production will suffer, but a city with 2-4 seafood, 2-4 other water tiles, and the rest mostly hills, can be a unit production powerhouse. Settle Great Generals here for the XP boost on your new units. There are two schools of thought re: Military Academies in the HE city. On the one hand, they only provide a ¼ boost on unit production over and above the +100% you’re already getting, and that doesn’t seem like much. On the other hand, Military Academies are an instant build, and don’t produce any . That makes them look pretty good versus the Factory/Coal Plant combo, which (a) takes time to build, time in which you can’t be building units in the city, (b) will create several which may force you to build even more infrastructure (Harbours, Recycling Centres, Grocers, etc), and (c) only produces a 37% real production bonus versus the 25% of the Military Academy. My rule of thumb: If your HE city takes more than 2 turns to build a base unit for the era (Axes, Maces, Rifles, Infantry), then you should consider adding production boosters like the Military Academy.

Don’t mix HE with: Anything non-military. Once the basic infrastructure (Granary/Barracks/Forge/HE, maybe Moai/Stable/Levee/Drydock) is down, you’ll want to use this city to build units, not infrastructure that could be built somewhere else without wasting the +100% on you get for building units here. For that reason, things that seem like they would make sense, like Factories, West Point, or Ironworks, usually aren’t the right play here.

Moai Statues: +1 on worked water tiles, and 1 Prophet GPP per turn.

The good news: Finally, some production for that coastal city.
The bad news: It’s going to take HOW long to build it? And, more subtly – you probably don’t want to be working a lot of regular coast tiles over the long term, Moai or no. 2F 1H 2C isn’t anything special.

Moai is situational. It can be a great production boost on water-heavy maps, but on a Pangaea, Moai can be an afterthought. If you have a seafood-rich city that isn’t already earmarked to be a Great Person farm, Moai can be a good build, to add some production to 2-4 Seafood tiles. “Lake” tiles, which are 3 with a Lighthouse, are pretty good when you add the extra hammer from Moai.

Synergies: As mentioned, I like HE with Moai, in the right spot. Yes, you don’t want to work a lot of coast tiles, but seafood is great for feeding citizens working mines, and Moai will grant a little production there, too. And in the very early game (when Moai and HE are available), 2F 1H 2C coast isn’t terrible.


Oxford University: +100% output, opens up 3 slots for Scientist specialists, and adds 1 Scientist GPP per turn.

In games that last much past the Renaissance, Oxford is usually a major goal. Building it can be a chore, because you need 6 200- Universities and quite often, your cities that can produce 200 quickly are the ones that benefit least from a University. For that matter, your top city (or GP farm) where Oxford would logically go, often doesn’t have a lot of , either. Timing a Golden Age to help with these builds is often a good idea.

Synergies: National Epic, sometimes – although a mature cottage city will usually outperform a GP farm for output.

Anti-Synergies: Any of the Military NWs.

Special case: Wall Street. The problem with WS/Oxford combinations is that you’ll want to maximize in your Ox city and in your WS city… and you can’t do both at the same time. If you usually have a 50:50 split between and on the slider, this combo can work… but it’s less appealing if you’re running specialists in the city (Scientists get no benefit from WS, Merchants don’t benefit from Ox, so you’re better off running Scientists in your Ox city and Merchants in your WS city, and not a mix of the two) or if you have a better Wall Street option (corporate HQ or shrine) somewhere else.

Ironworks: +50% with Coal, +50% with Iron (cumulative), 3 Engineer specialist slots, 2 and 1 Engineer GPP per turn.

Ironworks is an expensive build… but as it’s likely to go into one of your best production cities, so the slow build isn’t too bad. The 2 is actually pretty good – compare that with the 10 you get from Forge/Factory/Coal Plant and it’s relatively “green”. Very useful to have for unit production and late-game Wonder-building, and a near-must for Space race.

Synergies: West Point, which is otherwise a very slow build. If you want WP, this is a good place for it. The city will build units quickly due to IW, and they’ll be level 3 or better thanks to WP.

Anti-Synergies: The commerce-oriented NWs, obviously. HE, because IW = 800 that could have been units.


Wall Street: +100% in the city, 3 Merchant specialist slots, 1 Merchant GPP per turn.

Wall Street looks better than it usually is, frankly. To begin with, there’s the cost – 3 times that of Oxford, if you have the Stone to speed up Ox. That’s a lot of hammers for what might not be a production-rich city, and you’ll also need the 6 Banks before you can even get started. The difference between WS and a Bank (+100% vs +50%) isn’t as big of a deal as the gap between Oxford and a University. And by the time WS is available, the slider is probably tilted more towards than to (to build WS, you need Economics and Corporation, which will get you two free if you make the switch to Free Market). If WS was available, say, at Literature when NE is unlocked, it would be a much better build. A +100% building when my slider is set at 80% or more to Wealth? Yesplease.

Wall Street really shines in Shrine cities – if you build or capture a shrine, you should start laying the groundwork for a future Bank and Wall Street (maybe build some mines, or leave some unchopped forests). WS also goes well with Corporate HQs – if you choose to run Corps, they should be founded in your WS city wherever feasible.

Synergies: Possible synergies with Oxford and National Epic.

Anti-Synergies: The military NWs.

Other point: If you’re going to run Merchant specialists anywhere, run them here.


West Point: New units built here receive +4 XP. Produces one Spy GPP per turn.

Not as frequent a build as you might expect, because a) it’s expensive, and b) level 6 units (26 XP) don’t always happen along, although you could always create one with a Great General Warlord. But if you’re getting a lot of Warlords, it’s often just as easy to settle 2 of them in a production city and not bother with WP. I find that I make the effort to build WP in games where I’m playing a Protective, Aggressive, or Charismatic leader – the extra 4 XP can sometimes mean Drill IV units out of the box, or Blitz warships/Cavalry/Gunships.

Synergies: Military Academies, Ironworks.

Anti-Synergies: The commerce NWs. As noted, you may want to avoid diverting your HE city to the long slow build for WP.



Forbidden Palace: Reduces maintenance in nearby cities. Adds 1 Spy GPP per turn.

FP becomes available as soon as you have 8 cities and 6 courthouses, which can be relatively early (say, if you’re Sumeria). If you’re running a smallish empire or any sized empire under State Property, it’s not worth building. Otherwise, a large empire will benefit from FP, a large empire with Corporations will really benefit, and FP is an absolute must if you have a large empire with Corps on multiple landmasses.

Synergies: None, really. You’ll want to build FP far from your capital – on a second landmass, at the opposite end of your empire, places like that. Note that FP is a cut-rate version of the Versailles wonder (only 200 vs 800 for Versailles), so if you are building a global empire and NOT running the State Property civic, you may want to locate your Palace/Versailles/FP in a way so as to minimize your maintenance costs, and put Versailles in the city with better production (although in practice, I usually capture it).

Anti-Synergies: Again, none really – although as FP is best when far from your capital, you probably won’t be building it in your core cities where most of your NWs will likely be situated.

National Park: No from population in this city, +1 free specialist per Forest preserve in BFC, removes access to Coal in city, and 1 Scientist GPP per turn.

Another NW that sounds better than it usually is. I used to spend a lot of time looking for the ideal NP site – somewhere with 1-2 food specials and a ton of forests/jungles. I’d found the city, Lumbermill up the forests, build Forest Preserves on the jungle, build Granary/Forge and then start on NP, and then turn the lumbermills into Forest Preserves when NP completed. Trouble is, if you find a city with a dozen forests to support a dozen specialists, you’ll still need the specialist slots, which means additional time spent building Libraries, Markets, Grocers, Courthouses, etc. These buildings won’t give you much beyond the Specialist slots, because Forest Preserves don’t generate much in the way of . And in the end, your new NP city will wind up competing with your existing GP farm, and you might just get 1 GP out of the NP city before the game ends. Consequently, I seldom build NP anymore, unless I can throw it into an already-existing city that happens to have a few forests left, and could use the free specialists and/or the health benefit.

Synergies: NE, as noted above.

Anti-Synergies: Ironworks. As noted, IW only produces 2 , and losing access to Coal usually isn’t offset by the boost in health that NP creates.


Globe Theatre: No in this city, 3 Artist specialist slots, and 1 Artist GPP per turn.

The GT really shines when rushing units via draft or slavery – the elimination of in the city will allow you to draft/whip for as long as you have population, without needing to wait for the to subside. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11585700&postcount=18&postcount=18 for a nice, recent example of a GT drafting city. If you can draft units that start with free promotions (possible if you're Protective, if your civ has certain unique units, or via combining GT with Red Cross), so much the better.

That said – if you aren’t in Nationhood or Slavery, you can’t avail yourself of this tactic. Slavery is useful for a very long time – the early-to-mid-game decision point is usually Slavery vs Caste System – but Nationhood isn’t something you’ll want to be in forever, when Bureaucracy and Free Speech are the other options. If Spiritual, it can be feasible to flip in and out of Nationhood, but otherwise, the lost and from a civics switch would probably outweigh the drafting benefits. Usually.

So when else would you want the GT? Globe helps any extremely large city – a large cottaged city or possibly a GP farm. If you won’t be pairing either of National Park or Oxford with National Epic, Globe Theatre can go well with NE or Oxford.

Other Synergies: Can’t think of any.

Anti-Synergies: Military NWs. There’s no point in drafting units in a city with HE, and as drafted units start with ½ of the regular XP, it’s a waste of WP to put it in the draft city. Besides, you won’t want to divert 300 to GT in your military city, anyway.


Hermitage: +100% output in city, 1 Artist GPP per turn.

I suppose that one could use Hermitage in an area pressured by AI Culture, but in practice, I only ever use it when I’m playing for a Culture win, which is seldom. Same price as a Cathedral or Cathedral analogue, but the +100% that looks so good, becomes less significant when you consider how many other modifiers there are out there (Cathedrals, Broadcast Towers, and Media Wonders can total +550% !).

Synergies: Not really – although this is a good place to run lots of Artist specialists… and a good build for one of your top 3 cities when playing for a Culture win, obviously.

Anti-Synergies: Again, the military NWs.


Mt Rushmore: Provides -25% war in each of your cities. Adds 1 Artist GPP each turn.

Rushmore is a one-trick pony, and it’s not even that good of a trick, alas. Police state reduces war weariness by 50%, and Jails drop it by 25% while also boosting your . Rushmore is a “seldom-build” in my games; you can often manage war in easier, more effective ways. That said, Rushmore is a cheap build – just 500 , +100% with Stone, which is a lot less than the 600-800 you need to build the other late game NWs (Wall Street, Ironworks, West Point, Red Cross – and only WP is sped up by a resource).

Synergies: None. The effects are global, so you can build it anywhere. Avoid putting it somewhere that you might want another NW – so don’t mix it with things like HE, NE, Oxford or IW.


Red Cross: Provides a free Medic I promotion to units built in this city, and a Scientist GPP every turn.

To be candid, I can’t think of a really good reason to build this NW. Medic I is an easy promotion to get – it’s available at 5 XP. Besides, you don’t need an army of Medic I units… just one per stack is sufficient. You can promote Medic I units to March, but March isn't available on a lot of late game units (e.g. Tanks, Helicopters) and on drafted units, Medic I/March will probably be the only promotions you start with. Besides, it’s not just the 600 for the RC you have to consider – it’s the 1200 worth of Hospitals you have to build to even unlock the RC. Hospitals can be handy where you’re suffering a lot of (they’re seldom built on the front lines, so the unit healing bonus is mostly irrelevant), but there are lots of games in which I don’t even build one of them. They’re not like Forges (IW prerequisite) or Universities (Oxford prerequisite) which will usually get built in a few cities even if they didn’t unlock a NW.

Synergies: RC can work well with Globe Theatre in a drafting city - your drafted units will start with Medic I, which allows the very useful March promo. It may take a while to build RC here, though (your drafting city will be food-heavy to facilitate quick regrowth of drafted population).

Anti-Synergies: Yes, I suppose that if you’re going to build RC, you should do so in a city that produces units… but it shouldn’t be the HE or WP cities, because there are better things to do in those cities than to drop 600 on the RC.

reserved...

Stuff for your bibliography

March 2011
September 2009
September 2009
July 2009
March 2009
January 2009
Late December 2008
Early December 2008
August 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
July 2006
June 2006
Early June 2006
May 2006
March 2006

Thanks. Some good additional reading there... albeit, without as many cool fonts and icons

So when else would you want the GT? Probably in an extremely large city – a GP farm. If you won’t be pairing either of National Park or Oxford with National Epic, Globe Theatre can go well with NE.

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I'm not a big fan of this conclusion. GP Farms tend to be about converting their surplus food to GPP, not to growth; "large city" just doesn't fit.

You would be better off, for example, dropping the Globe theater into a commerce city, so that you can work ridiculous numbers of cottages. Palace + Bureaucracy + Globe is really strong, and in a culture game where Oxford isnt going to be pulling its full weight anyway....

NE + Globe isn't a broken pairing - Globe still gives you artist points, and artist slots (if you need them), and has the potential to help you get some extra infrastructure up without delaying the last artist too badly - but its still a relatively weak synergy.

I think Palace needs 4 cities on standard map, not 6.

Technically, the GT and the Red Cross enjoy a synergy. When you draft, you get half the experience, but you still get all of the free promos. I'm not saying that the Red Cross is good, just that it's not quite as bad if you know that half your army can start out with March (Medic I unlocks March).

It's like your Moai Statues example. The increase in production is not enough to make the city a high production city, but there is a synergy between boosting tile output and gaining a percentage increase.

One funny combo I sometimes do - it is very situational. If I got very few rivers, and a heavy cottaged capital in the valley with few hills (preferably with resources), I sometimes consider Oxford + ironworks + Beauro + UniversalS.
If others cities are crappy (Ice Age, Arid climate maps, Boreal...) , there is a quite good solution.


Oxford has one great synergy: Oxford + National Park.
Works perfect if your Oxford city is on floodplains -one usually leaves 2-4 forests for health. After biology turn lumbermills into preserves and one have a big rapid bonus to research - beside cottaged tiles one gets scientist - no health problems, higher happy cap.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

I'm not a big fan of this conclusion. GP Farms tend to be about converting their surplus food to GPP, not to growth; "large city" just doesn't fit.

You would be better off, for example, dropping the Globe theater into a commerce city, so that you can work ridiculous numbers of cottages. Palace + Bureaucracy + Globe is really strong, and in a culture game where Oxford isnt going to be pulling its full weight anyway....

NE + Globe isn't a broken pairing - Globe still gives you artist points, and artist slots (if you need them), and has the potential to help you get some extra infrastructure up without delaying the last artist too badly - but its still a relatively weak synergy.

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You make a good point - obviously, if your biggest city is a cottaged one, GT helps more there. I don’t rush to get GT early unless I’m planning a drafting strategy, and in the early game, Hereditary rule + units is probably a more economical way to get happiness, isn't it?

I guess my thinking re: GT/NE pairing is coloured by my approach to late-game GP farms, ones in which I’ll be working Biology Farms (1 Farm=1 Specialist). My GP farms tend to stabilize between the time I can switch to Caste System, through to Scientific Method (which usually costs me the Great Library, and in some cases, Parthenon). At that point, my GP rate slows, and I try to grow the GP farm onto all those grass farm tiles (post Biology) and then grab a few GPs during a GA (on the way to State Property). By that point, my GP farm tends to be my biggest city. On top of that consideration, I tend to put off getting Drama until after Liberalism, leading to the GT being enabled right about the time my GP farm is exploding.

I've amended the entry - thanks.

shakabrade said:

I think Palace needs 4 cities on standard map, not 6.

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Corrected, thanks.

Um the Muse said:

Technically, the GT and the Red Cross enjoy a synergy. When you draft, you get half the experience, but you still get all of the free promos. I'm not saying that the Red Cross is good, just that it's not quite as bad if you know that half your army can start out with March (Medic I unlocks March).

It's like your Moai Statues example. The increase in production is not enough to make the city a high production city, but there is a synergy between boosting tile output and gaining a percentage increase.

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Thanks for this idea – I seldom even consider building RC for Medic I>March. That does make the RC more viable… although (like you, I think) I don’t find that its benefit outweighs the cost (all those Hospitals… and your drafting city may not be able to build RC in a timely way). I’ve amended the entry.

enKage said:

One funny combo I sometimes do - it is very situational. If I got very few rivers, and a heavy cottaged capital in the valley with few hills (preferably with resources), I sometimes consider Oxford + ironworks + Beauro + UniversalS.
If others cities are crappy (Ice Age, Arid climate maps, Boreal...) , there is a quite good solution.


Oxford has one great synergy: Oxford + National Park.
Works perfect if your Oxford city is on floodplains -one usually leaves 2-4 forests for health. After biology turn lumbermills into preserves and one have a big rapid bonus to research - beside cottaged tiles one gets scientist - no health problems, higher happy cap.

Click to expand...

Mmm. I dunno. Ironworks and cottages means you’ll likely be applying the IW bonus to a lot of 2-hammer tiles (Levee+Suffrage). Seems a bit of a waste to me – IMO, the right river city for Ironworks is one with a lot of Watermills and/or State Property Workshops. And any hills I have in my Oxford city will eventually be Windmilled. I get that if you have very few decent cities, you may not be able to specialize them very much, but putting IW with Ox would be a last resort for me.

I’m not sure why Ox and NP are such a great fit, either (no more of a good fit than NP is in any large city, anyway). At least, not in the way you said it – if you have NP in the Ox city, you have zero health problems, making the forests redundant. If you keep the forests for health, you may not need NP. And I’m not sure I would trade a potential Town for a Forest in the Ox city, even if the Forest brought 1 happiness + 1 free specialist (the free specialist is more helpful in a GP farm).

National Wonders can be captured when you culture-flip AI cities, or when cities are gifted to you, but bear the following in mind:
a) If you already have the NW, the one in the AI city is destroyed;
[..]
c) If you lose a NW in this way (one of your cities is culture flipped), you can rebuild the NW somewhere else.

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Interesting, I guess you can use this as a NW destructor in a MP game: if you build NE in your science city and later want to move it, gift the science city to your ally, hope he gifts it back, and you can rebuild the NE. Would that work?

It won't if your ally already has the NE. I don't know what would happen if they're building it, but I think that their effort will go to waste.

Either way, it's a lot of effort to get around the rules. You might as well let your ally keep the NW. Hopefully, you can trade another city or two to make it up for your loss.

I would not limit myself too much with "synergies", for example..
if NE for some reasons was built in a city with loads of food and production, that can be your best spot for HE or Ironworks later.
Giving cities tasks is usually good, limiting them = bad.

Moai shines in golden ages. so if you have stone, just build it before your planned golden ages. Sometimes, it also a good idea to put HE together with Moai. I don't remember where and who tipped me this. Maybe from CFC or somewhere else.

IW+WP sounds like another super combo but normally you are too busy building units on deity or you are already winning the game by then.

If you want to have fun, GT+NP can give you a super large city, especially on some MOD where you can join workers into a city, just like Civ 3 days.