(6-VT) Allow city states to capitulate instead of capturing them

[Vaderkos]

Problem:
When at war with city state the ways to make peace are:

• Make peace with player who is allied with this city state
• City state changes its ally
• Capture city state

Proposal:
Add option for city-state to capitulate.

Allow city state to "capitulate" and become "vassal" instead of capturing, (add such option at city state menu when city-state is loosing or when city is captured).
As capitulation of city state I suggest that capitulating city becomes to "Sphere of influence for player for some N turns scaling with era" or until it is repealed by resolution.
If there is already such resolution for other player it is automatically repealed.
As N i consider some balanced number, but lack enough balancing knowledge for it. Also the previous nation score with such city-state is reset to 0 so that city state doesn't immediately declare war after sphere is removed.

Reasoning:
Often I encounter a situation when player located far from my nation is allied with city-states near me declare war.
It becomes very annoying as city-states continue to push my territory and the only way to stop it is to capture such cities gaining unnecessary and unwanted cities as puppets or added to nation.
In such way the vote of such city-state is lost. If instead of capturing city it might capitulate basing on war score or when it is captured it is better option sometimes. (Its like overthrown government for city-state)

This will add more requirements for player that is declaring war for helping such city states to not become someone else ally.
And it adds more options for defending player to deal with city-state not hurting nation or votes by capturing city-state.
It makes peripheral wars more reasonable.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I like this. Maybe some pro players should say if everything is consistent, but this looks like a root of a nice idea.
Sphere of Influence is available late in the tech tree. I understand that your mechanics will not be based on that?

 

[Vaderkos]

I like this. Maybe some pro players should say if everything is consistent, but this looks like a root of a nice idea.
Sphere of Influenceis available late in the tech tree. I understand that your mechanics will not be based on that?

I was thinking about binding the city-state to some player for some turns if it capitulates instead of capturing when you are at war, because capturing them when you're losing to deal with flanks almost always makes your situation worse.
I mentioned "Sphere of Influence" as a mechanic that is very similar and might be used for it, but as u mentioned it is latter in game.

I think game lacks some city-state actions for players, almost always it is just votes and straight bonuses or/and units. It would be great to have some interactions witth for players.

 

[ma_kuh]

Wouldn't it be enough to simply trigger a guaranteed coup as one of the city options? That basically sounds like what you're asking for: temporary ally, stop others from having influence enough to make them attack you, revoke Sphere of Influence.

I have no idea if it would be easier to add this trigger versus the one you suggested, but it seems simpler to communicate if nothing else. Although yes, you would still need to essentially capture the city, which you're trying not to have to do.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Wouldn't it be enough to simply trigger a guaranteed coup as one of the city options? That basically sounds like what you're asking for: temporary ally, stop others from having influence enough to make them attack you, revoke Sphere of Influence.

I have no idea if it would be easier to add this trigger versus the one you suggested, but it seems simpler to communicate if nothing else. Although yes, you would still need to essentially capture the city, which you're trying not to have to do.

Espionage rework plans to remove Coups.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I feel like this would make warfare even stronger than it is. Right now, a diplo player has to invest lots of resources to get, and more so to keep alliances. Getting sphere of influence often needs long term investment in votes from diverse sources and good relations with AIs.

Currently, if a warmonger want to block a diplo victory, he can conquer city states, but he has to integrate them as puppet or annexed city. This is already an easy way to counter diplo if you go warmonger. If this proposal is implemented, the warmonger gets even more options. And worse than that: it might become much easier for a diplo player to just conquer a few CSs to get spheres of influence than using the congress for that.

Also, a warmonger can just attack all city states in range to get spheres and thereby good yields from chanceries. It would be a no-brainer to do so and would result in fewer interesting decisions in the game.

 

[stii]

Yeah my concern is also this is pretty powerful. A weaker option would be something like knocking their ally down to zero influence. You could then ally them after with effort but it would be far harder.

 

[usadefcon1]

Espionage rework plans to remove Coups.

I'm guessing the game mechanic in the code could be used from a button on the city capture screen instead of from a button on the espionage screen.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

I would say the Sphere stays until repealed in WC. If you cant wait for that then just use your military to flip it back.
However CS sphered this way should have its bonuses/votes reduced. Power in WC should still come from doing proper diplo with CS.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Yeah my concern is also this is pretty powerful. A weaker option would be something like knocking their ally down to zero influence. You could then ally them after with effort but it would be far harder.

And it would be an incentive for the ally to actually protect the CS.

 

[Rekk]

And it would be an incentive for the ally to actually protect the CS.

If someone trying to conquer the city state to steal your vote doesn't cause someone to protect the city-state, I don't see this moving the needle much in that regard.

 

[Vaderkos]

I feel like this would make warfare even stronger than it is. Right now, a diplo player has to invest lots of resources to get, and more so to keep alliances. Getting sphere of influence often needs long term investment in votes from diverse sources and good relations with AIs.

Currently, if a warmonger want to block a diplo victory, he can conquer city states, but he has to integrate them as puppet or annexed city. This is already an easy way to counter diplo if you go warmonger. If this proposal is implemented, the warmonger gets even more options. And worse than that: it might become much easier for a diplo player to just conquer a few CSs to get spheres of influence than using the congress for that.

Also, a warmonger can just attack all city states in range to get spheres and thereby good yields from chanceries. It would be a no-brainer to do so and would result in fewer interesting decisions in the game.

If we consider (instead of sphere of influence) option to stop such city state war with you and make it you vassal but create government in exile (idk building? in capital) for such city state in previous ally, so that vote remains for diplo player. So that you have to pass resolution to recognize new city-state government and take the vote from diplo player to defending one? Just thinking loud

 

[KlHannibal2]

If someone trying to conquer the city state to steal your vote doesn't cause someone to protect the city-state, I don't see this moving the needle much in that regard.

Some CS allies are on the other side of the world and you can't send enough troops there as a diplo player. Now, the war monger takes the city but does not get the votes. AFAIK, the CS votes are lost and the number of votes necessary for diplo victory is decreased. If the war monger takes the votes by sphere of influence, it will hurt mich more.

 

[FinMc]

This strikes me as pretty OP, I'd do this to every city state in range as a warmonger the second I had the army to get away with it.

How do the current conquer city state>liberate>sphere mechanics work? I try to abuse that pretty heavily once world Congress ramps up and it's very strong as no one can really stop you once you have a strong army and then you get a ton of basically free votes/yields.

Sometimes though I don't get the option to liberate and then I have a random puppet city I don't care about.

 

[azum4roll]

the number of votes necessary for diplo victory is decreased

No, the number is set at the beginning of the game and is never changed.

This proposal only encourages players to declare war on CS with allies that can't declare war on you (DP, DoF, etc.), to steal them while they can't do anything about it.

 

[Stalker0]

Espionage rework plans to remove Coups.

not all of them, my counterproposal is almost ready, hope to post it today.

 

[Stalker0]

No, the number is set at the beginning of the game and is never changed.

Are you sure, I feel like I've gotten 3 answers to this question. Does CS getting killed or anything else in the game affect this at all?

Does it mean that if enough CS are taken that DV becomes impossible?

 

[Stalker0]

I feel like this option is going overboard. For example, I could respect the idea when you conquer the CS that one of the options is "Install Sphere of Influence". Now personally I still think that is way too OP (a sphered ally CS is WAY better than a puppet), but at least taht is clean and uses the current interface and mechanics.

But this proposal seems similar to the old Mongol forced annex, where you could just acquire a bunch of CS through war dominance rather than true conquest....and every time we have tried that (first mongols, then rome) it was dropped as being too OP.

 

[4CV]

Reading the OP again, I understand the whole thing should only apply when you were attacked by a CS, because their (far away) ally declared war on you. Not when you attacked that CS.
I can't see how that could be abused,

 

[Xaviarlol]

This is a great suggestion.