7 New Civs You'd Like to See in Civ7

Regardless of the reason, India exists and is united. And there is shared culture and history across every group within India.
So does China exist and is united. But we don't say we shouldn't have a Tibetan, Uyghur or Manchu civ because they're part of the Chinese nation-state.

Or the Yoruba and Hausa groups should be represented by a Nigerian civ.

Post-colonial nation states are not an ideal to adhere to when it comes to representing civs in the game.
 
Post-colonial nation states are not an ideal to adhere to when it comes to representing civs in the game.
I am not sure what this has to do with what I said.

You suggested India’s political unification is completely arbitrary and says nothing about their shared culture, but it’s not.

My point is that this is being framed entirely incorrectly and rather pedantically.

Put another way, I don’t think the majority of Indian people are up in arms about being Indian.
 
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I am not sure what this has to do with what I said. You suggested India’s political unification is completely arbitrary, but it’s not.
What I am trying to say is there is a great deal of history and diversity that gets mashed up into a clumsy blob when it comes to India.

Aren't you the same pokiehl who said that Achaemenid Persia and Sassanid Persia should be two different civs? Why should the Kannada, Tamil, Bengali and Hindustani states and empires, encompassing a land area comparable to Western Europe, and a time span of more than two millennia share the same civ?
 
Why should the Kannada, Tamil, Bengali and Hindustani states and empires, encompassing a land area comparable to Western Europe, and a time span of more than two millennia share the same civ?
I would like to see a non-modern representation of India in Civ. Not sure what this has to do with the conversation.

Please try to stay focused on what we’re actually talking about. It’s frustrating to talk about one thing and be confronted with a strawman about something else (intentional or not). I’m generally careful to make sure my posts are precisely worded to reflect specific points.

I’ve already explained that I was specifically challenging the notion that modern India is solely an arbitrary state that doesn’t reflect the history or culture of its inhabitants. Diversity does not preclude a shared culture and heritage.
 
I would like to see a non-modern representation of India in Civ. Not sure what this has to do with the conversation.

Please try to stay focused on what we’re actually talking about. It’s frustrating to talk about one thing and be confronted with a strawman about something else (intentional or not). I’m generally careful to make sure my posts are precisely worded to reflect specific points.
We are talking at cross purposes then. I am referring to the Indian civ as represented in Civ 5 and 6.
 
"This isn't a blob" doesn't mean "we cannot divide this civilization" or "every part of the current country should be part of the civilization".

It just means that while there are good arguments for (a) new civilization(s) in a region (and there really are for India), "blob" and "deblobbing" are grossly exaggerated terms for that particular country (and they really are for India), because the fundamental criteria of a blob (a grouping that has no historical reality behind it) is simply not there.

We should get additional Indian civs. That does not make India a blob, nor the addition of new Indian civs "deblobbing".
 
Including cities that are part of India today in India does not a blob make. These cities are part of India, as it exists today ; they belong in the Indian civ. They might better belong elsewhere, but "better belong elsewhere" is not the same as "does not belong there", and it's the later that makes a blob, not the former.

India, even including both Mughal and Chola references (which the current Indian civ largely does not), is not comparable to the absolutely hideous Native American (or later Polynesian) situation. It exists ; and while its current constituent part weren't a united whole they are part of its history.

Trying to elevate India, or Indonesia, or any of the other civs that still get slapped with misuse of the "blob" label to a problem comparable to these two is just plain unnecessary hyperbole.
 
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Including cities that are part of India today in India does not a blob make. These cities are in India ; including them in India is not "a blob". They may better belong in a different civ ; but they aren't out of place in India.
That's not what I meant. Can you have an India civ and a Chola civ? Can you have an India civ and a Mughal civ? If no, that's a blob.

To try to apply the term blob, that was coined for those two egregious case, to India is gross exaggeration.
This etymological lore was unknown to me. But since the word 'blob' seems to have a special monopolytical utility, I will happily accept downgrading to 'lump' or even 'glob'
 
I will agree that arguing that we cannot have Chola or Mughal because we have India can be described as lumping :p.

(My objection to Mughal is my general objection to treating single dynasties of civilizations, but I will admit that the name options for northwestern Indian subcontinent Turko-Indo-Persian civilization are scarce)
 
(My objection to Mughal is my general objection to treating single dynasties of civilizations, but I will admit that the name options for northwestern Indian subcontinent Turko-Indo-Persian civilization are scarce)
Which is why I constantly champion the term 'Hindustan', which is the term used by AoE2, and was the term used by the Mughals for their realm, and is also one of the terms used for the Urdu-Hindi language and the culture related to it, and also allows us (or Firaxis) to represent the pre-Mughal Islamic sultanates as well, which I find fascinating in their own right, in particular the Mamluk dynasty of Delhi and Razia Sultana, one of the few female sovereign rulers in Islamic history, and Sher Shah Suri, the man who practically laid down the adminstrative foundations for the Mughal Empire more than Babur did, and which sultanates and whose culture and adminstration the Mughals were simply a successor to.
 
Yeah, it's probably best, although naming the "Not actually Hindu" civilization "land of the Hindu" is all the many shades of strange.
 
Thanks for the correction! I was so used to the ethnic group-stan construct that I didn't realize it could be used otherwise. That does make much more sense, especially as the Indus is largely not part of modern India.
 
@pokiehl, @Alexander's Hetaroi, what would an Indian civ look like and represent to you?
Probably something similar to Civ 6.
However, I am indifferent as to whether an Indian civ should remain as is, with different alternate leaders, or be split. Ideally I would love Ashoka to be leader and some sort of Mughal representation. I put them on my list and do believe they could be doable alongside India, regardless.

I will say that it was never my intention to argue whether India should remain as it is or be split. My reasoning for why I do not consider them a “blob” is what @Evie pointed out. But sure calling them a “lump” civ can work.
 
Can you have an India civ and a Chola civ? Can you have an India civ and a Mughal civ? If no, that's a blob.
I think you could have all three and it wouldn't be weird.

Talking about "Indian civilization" is comparable in size to "Western Civilization". There are commonalities between cultures within the subcontinent, but it is a very expansive grouping.
 
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You can definitely have all three (and Magadhan as well if need be).

But I'd say India is more akin to having a Christendom civilization for Medieval Catholic Europe, than a broader and more ill-defined Western civilization: something that actually had a definable, acknowleded existence as an actual thing (Christendom was a meaningful concept in Medieval Europe, as India is a well understood state today), so not a blob, both largely as the result of outside forces (colonialism/catholic proselytism) that imposed their change at the expanse of preexisting culture, both being about comparable in geographic size, and both ill choices to include alone for the game (Christendom because deleting the West European civs is a marketing diaster, India because while it works it tends to lump things together in excess.
 
Regardless of the reason, India exists and is united. It could just as easily not remain united (see the Balkans), so its continued existence means something relevant.

And there is shared culture and history across every group within India.
Yes and sort of.

That India exists as a single state now (minus Pakistan and Bangladesh, which at one time or the other have been part of 'India') is enough to make it includable as a single Civ in the game.

BUT the various groups in India do not share some of the most important aspects of culture: language, religion, and ethnicity. My wife and I have friends from India: one family from southeastern India, one from the Punjab in the northwest. One family is Pentacostial Christian, the other Sikh. One spoke Hindi at home, the other a dialect of Urdu. The only language the two have in common is English, and that, of course, is a Colonial product imposed on the subcontinent in the last 200 years. "Shared culture" is only appropriate as a term between them if carefully defined, because many aspects of culture are not in common at all.

On the other hand, I would argue that the differences between them (and other groups in India) are no more or less than the differences among groups in the USA or even the British Isles (get an Irishman, Welshman, Englishman and Scot talking about 'British Culture' if you want to hear an explosive debate!). So differences in the individual 'cultures' of groups within the Civ are not an insurmountable impediment to inclusion in the game.

I think, in fact, that it comes down to a Time Stamp. Modern India is a single Civ. 15th or 10th century India was not. Modern Britain and USA are single Civs, but 'Britain' before the beginning of the 18th century was purely a geographical term, not political or cultural except to help define the differences, and any 'Britain' before the 10th century would be a Blob including Celts (several different polities), Britons, and Germanics with little in common culturally or politically except antipathy. A case could be made that the USA before the mid 19th century (railroads) could be culturally modeled as regions or individual States almost as accurately as a single Civ - and that does not include the Confederacy, which was itself something of a (minor) Blob Civ full of political and cultural differences.

Finally, if we can include the over-arcing Empires like the Achaemenid Persian and Roman, both multi-ethnic and multi-cultural entities, as single Civs in practically every iteration of the game, and 'lump' all of the USA and Great Britain for all time under one all-encompassing roof, a single India is not impossible - it just, like the other instances, doesn't accurately portray the total political, cultural and ethnic diversity of the 'Civ' over the timespan of the game, or even a large fraction of it.
 
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