7 New Civs You'd Like to See in Civ7

I'm having difficult understanding what you're saying here

"Break up India"

But into what? What would the Civs, other than "India" that are in that region, be? If it's the Mughal Empire, that covers most of what is today India... so, why not call it India, is that really breaking it up at all? I've asked multiple times and I'm still just as confused about what "breaking up India" even entails here.
 
Break up India into at least broad representing the major groupings of highly distinct cultures that have existed since time immemorial in the region, and that all at one time or another formed an empire controling large part of the region - but rarely if ever kept it. In cultural terms, presenting India as a single culture or single civilization is like lumping Rome, France and Germany into one single European civilization on the ground of "well, they all conquered most of Europe" at some point.

These major grouping would include at least the northwestern Turko-Persianized cultures found around Pakistan, Afghanistan, and northwestern India (such as the Delhi and Mughal states); the North-Central and Eastern Hindi-speaking cultures of the Gangetic plain (including most notably all the Magadhan Empires - Maurya), and the Dravidian language family cultures of the more tropical and naval-oriented Southern India (such as the Chola Empire). Further subdivisions could be imagined, but recognizing the major distinction between these three culture groups is the first and most important step of breaking down India.
 
Of course not.

That would include England.
 
You don't get to be the world's foremost purveyor of independence days without breaking a few international relationships.
 
You don't get to be the world's foremost purveyor of independence days without breaking a few international relationships.
Although the great majority were done without firing a shot, and the new nations remained amicable. Of the the four that fought for independence, militarily, three of them are now very friendly (though the Republic of Ireland took a lot longer to come around than the United States and South Africa, but Zimbabwe remains on the outs).
 
I think the developers tend to just pick the most recognisable names and civilisations when going through this stuff.
Hence, India over (split) India. Ottomans are a very well known empire, there's a lot of stuff to pull apart for the Civ. But just "Turks" is not as much.
We have Romans and not Italians because Romans are more well known.
They tend to really not care about any kind of consistency besides that
I wouldn't necessarily say the Romans are more well known than Italy. I would put them about equal in terms of popularity and relevance to history (Italian Renaissance anyone?)
The main argument of why we have the Roman Empire over Italy is because Rome is always going to take precedent by being one of the biggest empires of antiquity, and have the capital be Rome. That being said, I think having both is doable, especially if we model civ design based off of Civ 6.
 
"Most recognizable names and civilizations" is easily disproved by looking at Civ VI: while there are well recognizable names and civilizations, there's also a clear effort to mix it up by including more obscure civilizations and less well known leaders. Amanitore, Ambiorix, Ba Trieu, even Catherine de Medici, Gitarja, Hojo Tokimune, Jayavarman, Kristina, Lautaro, Matthias Corvinus, Mvemba a Nzinga, Nzinga Mbande, Poundmaker, Sundiata Keita and Tomyris all fall far short of "most recognizable names".

That's as it should be. Of course, you want to have some recognizable names for continuity and because fulfilling some of your player's expectations is important. But Civilization is clearly not afraid to broaden the horizons of its user base by introducing them to historical figure they might not otherwise have known about. A good overall mix.
 
Of course they will always have a combination of recognisable names and curve balls. But I doubt Civ designers will want to rain on the parade of their cherished favourite mainstays (eg. Rome, England, Russia, India etc.) By splitting them or replacing them with less well known counterparts if they don't have to.

And I'm sure they wouldn't want both Rome and Italy (even though it is possible) because it might feel like... dredging the same ground again (even thought it doesn't have to be)
Because that slot could easily be taken by a Civ that could be totally different.

I'm sure they have a whole CivBible for selecting these
 
And I'm sure they wouldn't want both Rome and Italy (even though it is possible) because it might feel like... dredging the same ground again (even thought it doesn't have to be)
Because that slot could easily be taken by a Civ that could be totally different.
Like (British) England and (British)Scotland as well as Greece and Macedon? :mischief:
Either way they already had Rome and Venice, which is an Italian city in Civ 5 ,so having a full fledged one is the next step.
 
Like (British) England and (British)Scotland as well as Greece and Macedon? :mischief:
Either way they already had Rome and Venice, which is an Italian city in Civ 5 ,so having a full fledged one is the next step.
I mean England and Scotland are not the same...
Neither are Greece and Macedonia.
Rome and Venice are not the same either.

The problem would arise when you have both Rome and Italy. Because Rome is inside Italy. It would be as redundant as having an Arabia and an Ayyubids. Doesn't matter if it was Arabia (repping modern) and Ayyubids (repping old), it's still redundant...
But we already have Rome+Byzantium, France+Gauls, England+USA+Australia
Yea. Anyway I'm not sure why any of these examples mean we could also have Rome and Italy. I mean we could. But I'm just saying that they are better off just getting max representation instead of repetitive representation.
 
I mean England and Scotland are not the same...
It's why I emphasized the British part. Both of them are heavily designed around 18th to 19th century whenever they were already united.
Neither are Greece and Macedonia.
Well, the Kingdom of Macedon was pretty much a Greek kingdom.
The problem would arise when you have both Rome and Italy. Because Rome is inside Italy. It would be as redundant as having an Arabia and an Ayyubids. Doesn't matter if it was Arabia (repping modern) and Ayyubids (repping old), it's still redundant...
Well Grenada was also inside Spain, even on their city list at launch, before they took it out and made it a city-state.

Yes, I could see how that was a problem at least before Civ 6. Now you have the possibility of at least having different capitals depending on the leader, which doesn't have to be Rome. Plus, if you design it around the Risorgimento than Rome wasn't even part of Italy at the beginning of the war of Italian unification, which means it doesn't need to be on the city list.
 
Break up India into at least broad representing the major groupings of highly distinct cultures that have existed since time immemorial in the region, and that all at one time or another formed an empire controling large part of the region - but rarely if ever kept it. In cultural terms, presenting India as a single culture or single civilization is like lumping Rome, France and Germany into one single European civilization on the ground of "well, they all conquered most of Europe" at some point.

These major grouping would include at least the northwestern Turko-Persianized cultures found around Pakistan, Afghanistan, and northwestern India (such as the Delhi and Mughal states); the North-Central and Eastern Hindi-speaking cultures of the Gangetic plain (including most notably all the Magadhan Empires - Maurya), and the Dravidian language family cultures of the more tropical and naval-oriented Southern India (such as the Chola Empire). Further subdivisions could be imagined, but recognizing the major distinction between these three culture groups is the first and most important step of breaking down India.

Thank you, never heard of the Chola Empire/Dynasty. Fascinating reading.

But I wouldn't count major ethno-linguistic groups as a Civ, Civ as a series never has, there's no "Pan Slavic" Civ just as one opposing example of bringing a "Civ" together rather than splitting it apart. Besides, the temptation to split peoples cleanly into ethno-linguistic traditions seems a poor one from a historical research perspective. Someone in the US today could've had parents from Mexico, grown up eating home made tacos, and still never been to Mexico nor speak a word of Spanish. The real world of today is much messier than some sort of clean lines between distinct groups, and thanks to the major breakthroughs in archaeological DNA recovery we know the ancient world wasn't hugely different, someone from northern Europe could show up and die as a mercenary on the island of Sicily thousands of years ago.

Division of people into distinct ethno lingusitic traditions is one I've witnessed as driven by current day politics and may as well be supersticious beliefs, as it doesn't match up with history or even the current day. Just witness the ludicrous tale of Kosovo, a place that I've seen natives born there in the 80's and earlier say was a relatively calm place despite what attempts at dramatic histories might portray. The "division" between Albanians and Serbs was mostly ignored by the vast majority of the population, until the troubles really started in that direction. Not of course that one could actually make any DNA distinction between Serb and Albanian as such, or cultural distinction between peoples that had been intermixed neighbors since forever. But politicians started using propaganda to paint "In" and "Out" groups, Serbians and Albanians, ramping up violent rhetoric more and more until the whole place burned down over imaginary differences. Civ as as series certainly does not need to support any such notions, or anything even close to adjacent.

Instead the current tradition of Civ just having a "distinct" historically recorded significant political structure, rather than anything else, seems a much cleaner and easier to use definition.

Even then one can split too much. Chola would be neat. But I'm not sure I'd count Chola as India, or breaking up India, it's the southern fringe of current India and a large part of the Indian Ocean. And since Mauryan and Mughal Empires and Current India line up geographically "well enough", more than well enough so far as I'm concerned, I still don't see an argument for "breaking it up". Seems to me may as well call for separating England, Scotland, Wales, and the British Empire into separate civs each. One can get a bit carried away EG: Texas as a seperate Civ from America, it even had it's own official embassy in London, surely Texas should be separate right?
 
Last edited:
Of course they will always have a combination of recognisable names and curve balls. But I doubt Civ designers will want to rain on the parade of their cherished favourite mainstays (eg. Rome, England, Russia, India etc.) By splitting them or replacing them with less well known counterparts if they don't have to.

And I'm sure they wouldn't want both Rome and Italy (even though it is possible) because it might feel like... dredging the same ground again (even thought it doesn't have to be)
Because that slot could easily be taken by a Civ that could be totally different.

I'm sure they have a whole CivBible for selecting these
Civilizations in an iteration are not the same as these endemic mechanics by iteration, which are not the same as the bedrock, foundational elements of the game.
 
A number of civilization in the game have not historically been unified polities: Mayans, and for that matter Greeks (even under Alexander Greece was not unified - Sparta never was part of Macedon, and in any event Alexander and Macedon are a separate civilization nowadays). The idea that civilization the game represent "united polities" is not a standard the devs have given any hints of adhering to ; but a fan definition that some people push really hard. And again, these civilizations maintained independent states - the various Magadhan dynasties, the Mughal Empire, the Chola Empire, so "independent polity" would not in any way disqualify any of them.

As to the British isles, Scotland already is in the game. Most people who want it out generally suggest replacing it with Ireland. So, I'm not sure what point you think you're making here. Yes, England should not include Scotland, or Ireland, or even the Welsh, and yes, the Welsh, Irish and Scots should all be legitimate candidate to be civilizations in the game.

"They occupied the same area as India so that's good enough for me" is a simplistic form of thinking that rejects history in favor of sticking with what's familiar and rejecting change. Don'T get me wrong, with only a few civs like the first few games in the series, it was the right call to put India together; but we're not there anymore. With the series rapidly approaching fifty or sixty civs in the same game, the reasons to keep doing so grow much thinner, and really, are every minor European country really more important to have in the game than the historical cultures and nations of India?
 
Seems to me may as well call for separating England, Scotland, Wales, and the British Empire into separate civs each.
Well, I have news for you...:shifty:
One can get a bit carried away EG: Texas as a seperate Civ from America, it even had it's own official embassy in London, surely Texas should be separate right?
Why not? :mischief:
(I'm from Texas so I feel obligated to say it, even as a joke).
 
* Islamic Turkic Persianates are part of Indian History but are not India. They are even more the core element of what is now Pakistan, a country that cover most of the Indus river basin, as are also very relevant for Afghanistan.
* Dravidian peoples in general and Tamils in particular resisted the invasion of every empire comming from the Indus and the Ganges, they were a stronghold for Hinduism againts Buddhist and Muslim dynasties even in what is now Sri Lanka and oversea in South East Asia.
* Maghada was the heart of the many gangetic empires, successive dynasties ruling from Pataliputra that were essential for the rise of Jainism and Buddhism. Their core was not just at India's side but also for what is now Bangladesh.

From whatever angle we see it there are always some presedent in CIV that justify these kind of civs to be in game, they are as valid as are Gauls, Venice, Ottoman, Byzantium, Scotland, etc. These civs are not "just India" they are the core history of other nations that are not India currently, and at their time fought into or against "indian" empires with complety different languages and religions.
 
Top Bottom