A&E is dead.

[Valka D'Ur]

DYOS started in OT and it was awesome.

My involvement started when A&E was created and I was made aware of a group of creative people who had been shuffled around the forum like so much unwanted stuff and were hoping for a place where they could be free to create their stories in peace, without being lost or having their threads arbitrarily pruned for no reason.

From what I've been told they're quite happy in A&E, and not eager to be moved yet again. As I said, it's a perfect fit.

 

[Luckymoose]

Moving people where they don't want to be moved to no benefit of their own is pointless.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I concur with Valka D'Ur's remarks.



You said the following:




I was making out how the cases not similar, especially in regards to natures. I was attempting to avoid two different scenarios for being regarded as cookie cutter.

Still: I must give issue with the bold ad hominem as ad hominems are not a form of valid debating tactics. Presume your "opposition" is unable to read: it will only weaken your prestige.

Are you dense or are you intentionally misrepresenting my point? Let me break it down in the most simplistic way possible.
Moderator Action: Flaming, do not do it
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

1) I don't think change in of itself is a good thing
2) If change is to occur there needs to be some rational, evidence-based argument for why that change will be a good thing
3) I never saw any good rational argument for why NES and IOT should be merged
4) Similarly now that people are free to choose which subforum they prefer to have their artsy debate in, I no longer see any rational argument for why OT and A&E should be merged
5) Therefore I think neither should be merged

I am not speaking to the contexts of both, nor their communities, nor to anything else. Valka merely observed that I was against the merger of one situation and making arguments that could be applied to the other and asking if my rationale is the same for the other. Which it is. The comparison begins and ends with the rationale.

What you are doing is like if I said "I like music with a strong emotionally lyrical component. I love opera, and I love bluegrass, and I love soul." And then you said "NO THESE ARE ALL TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS". And they are totally different things. But we aren't talking about all the things that make them different. We are talking about a) I like big lyrically soulful music, and b) All of these genres have big lyrically soulful components. That is where the comparison begins and ends.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Are you dense or are you intentionally misrepresenting my point? Let me break it down in the most simplistic way possible.

1) I don't think change in of itself is a good thing
2) If change is to occur there needs to be some rational, evidence-based argument for why that change will be a good thing
3) I never saw any good rational argument for why NES and IOT should be merged
4) Similarly now that people are free to choose which subforum they prefer to have their artsy debate in, I no longer see any rational argument for why OT and A&E should be merged
5) Therefore I think neither should be merged

...really? I am dense because I said a simple comment that A&E is not the same as IOT and NES? Art and Entertainment is not the same genre of subject as OC; there are logical disagreements on how "separate" IOT and NES are.

Also presenting those who wanted the IOT/NES merge as "change for change sake" ignored that there was grant rational notions behind it.

I am not speaking to the contexts of both, nor their communities, nor to anything else. Valka merely observed that I was against the merger of one situation and making arguments that could be applied to the other and asking if my rationale is the same for the other. Which it is. The comparison begins and ends with the rationale.

Boy you are taking a big thing from a simple "two different cases" statement...

My comment was, and is, about the different natures of the cases. I did not make that statement to do and be engaged withad hominems. I concur that the A&E should not be placed into the A&E; I wish to focus on that.

What you are doing is like if I said "I like music with a strong emotionally lyrical component. I love opera, and I love bluegrass, and I love soul." And then you said "NO THESE ARE ALL TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS". And they are totally different things. But we aren't talking about all the things that make them different. We are talking about a) I like big lyrically soulful music, and b) All of these genres have big lyrically soulful components. That is where the comparison begins and ends.

I am sorry but someone who proclaims to be "rational" the statement rather takes a mountain out of a ant hill.

Trying to paint me as not reading what your saying is dishonest and irrational. What I did is say that IOT and NES talks on whether both fruits belong in the same fruit bowl are not akin to the idea of place the A&E chocolate cake with the OT uncooked meat. I guess I could have expressed it better but that is the notion of it; two different levels of topics. IOT and NES are about two game cultures based around things that we can consider as of a similar or even same genre; A&E is about art and OC is about mud fighting.

Overall there is no need for a flame war.

 

[Luckymoose]

Once more it seems individuals not part of a community think they have the right to dictate the future of said community. I stand with the preservation of A&E based entirely on it being not OT, and thus I stand with the preservation of a unique part of our forum, no matter how small, in defiance of individuals who seek change for change's sake.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Moderator Action: NES/IOT is not the topic in this thread, please stay on topic

 

[Hygro]

My involvement started when A&E was created and I was made aware of a group of creative people who had been shuffled around the forum like so much unwanted stuff and were hoping for a place where they could be free to create their stories in peace, without being lost or having their threads arbitrarily pruned for no reason.

From what I've been told they're quite happy in A&E, and not eager to be moved yet again. As I said, it's a perfect fit.

How about the dissatisfied people who used to participate but now don't because, ah, it's not a perfect fit.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

That can chose between there, OT, or any other venue that might suit them better.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

How about the dissatisfied people who used to participate but now don't because, ah, it's not a perfect fit.

If memory serves, it was back in 2010 that DYOS moved to A&E. I recall getting PMs from some of the guys asking to be moved there, and after checking out what this activity involves, I agreed. If there were any DYOS people who actually wanted to stay where they were, they didn't bother telling me about it (I was a moderator at the time, and Plotinus and I were modding A&E).

 

[choxorn]

It was in OT for a few years, then moved to Forum Games in 2006 (I think?), then to A&E in 2010. The move to Forum Games was not one requested by the DYOS'ers (I don't think, I wasn't a contributor at the time), the move to A&E was.

It changed quite a bit since the original DYOS, way back in 2003. The early editions were chaotic messes of people fighting imaginary wars for control of the world, I believe, that weren't terribly artistic. It was only around 2007-08 or so that we decided we wanted to try to make this a little bit more serious, if nothing else so that the antics of one particular poster (who has since gotten much less annoying) would stop wrecking everything we tried to do.

The early editions may have been a better fit for OT or even Forum Games, given their nature, but the last few certainly belong in A&E.

 

[Hygro]

That can chose between there, OT, or any other venue that might suit them better.

Yes that's now true.

If memory serves, it was back in 2010 that DYOS moved to A&E. I recall getting PMs from some of the guys asking to be moved there, and after checking out what this activity involves, I agreed. If there were any DYOS people who actually wanted to stay where they were, they didn't bother telling me about it (I was a moderator at the time, and Plotinus and I were modding A&E).

By that point it already became what it is now. The convergence on plotlines and negotiating how everything turned out was a reasonable conclusion, and as someone who was all for that initially, it's a lot of fun. But it'd be a lot more fun now to just bring back the pandemonium of more people with unmarried visions of what it can be.

Do you understand my point, though? When something awesome and freeform and inclusive becomes exclusive and bogged, a lot of people are going to quietly leave, and then move on. Of course they'd never PM you, they were already long since driven out by a loud minority who insisted the story had to be a thing.

So while you might think you have the whole DYOS world in your heart, you are actually just as much speaking against those DYOS denizens who aren't active because of the very structure you favor.

Does this make sense?

It was in OT for a few years, then moved to Forum Games in 2006 (I think?), then to A&E in 2010. The move to Forum Games was not one requested by the DYOS'ers (I don't think, I wasn't a contributor at the time), the move to A&E was.

It changed quite a bit since the original DYOS, way back in 2003. The early editions were chaotic messes of people fighting imaginary wars for control of the world, I believe, that weren't terribly artistic. It was only around 2007-08 or so that we decided we wanted to try to make this a little bit more serious, if nothing else so that the antics of one particular poster (who has since gotten much less annoying) would stop wrecking everything we tried to do.

The early editions may have been a better fit for OT or even Forum Games, given their nature, but the last few certainly belong in A&E.

Of course, but it's a positive feedback loop, becoming more and more that NES type story and less the free for all of spontaneous glimpses of harmony before it collapsed into ridiculousness.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

By that point it already became what it is now. The convergence on plotlines and negotiating how everything turned out was a reasonable conclusion, and as someone who was all for that initially, it's a lot of fun. But it'd be a lot more fun now to just bring back the pandemonium of more people with unmarried visions of what it can be.

Do you understand my point, though? When something awesome and freeform and inclusive becomes exclusive and bogged, a lot of people are going to quietly leave, and then move on. Of course they'd never PM you, they were already long since driven out by a loud minority who insisted the story had to be a thing.

So while you might think you have the whole DYOS world in your heart, you are actually just as much speaking against those DYOS denizens who aren't active because of the very structure you favor.

Wow. Hyperbole much?

Hygro, I lobbied for the creation of A&E, or a forum like it. The admins saw fit to grant that request (keep in mind that there were others who also lobbied for it as well). At that time, I was barely aware of DYOS. Later, I got PMs about it from some of the people who were participants then - and they're still active.

I am not responsible for moving DYOS from OT to Other Games. I wasn't on staff when that happened, and A&E didn't exist at that time. So how about curbing your frustration at me and direct it toward the people who had a part in that decision, if any of them are still around? There have been turnovers in forum membership and staff since then, and it's entirely possible that a lot of the people you're angry with aren't even here anymore.

Y'know what? I support the people who asked me for help. I saw that the activity and material they showed me was creative and artistic, and thought it would be a great addition to A&E. Ever since then, not one of them has said, "Valka, this was a mistake. Please transfer us back to Other Games [or somewhere else]." To my knowledge, they've never asked this of Atticus or Plotinus, either (Atticus was my successor in A&E and Plotinus still moderates there).

If you're upset about the storylines and how they're done now, you should talk to the people who actually produce them. I'm not a contributor of art, writing, or even suggestions for the DYOS stories. I just enjoy what they end up posting. So complaining to me about it isn't productive at all. I have no say over DYOS stories or structure or anything else. I'm part of their audience, and while an audience member might make an occasional suggestion or ask a question, it's pretty bad form for an audience member to start dictating the form and content of the performance (or the artwork, writing, etc.).

 

[Hygro]

So how about curbing your frustration at me and direct it toward the people who had a part in that decision

Let's rewind. You said DYOS couldn't be in OT. I pointed out it thrived in OT. You said that DYOS is a perfect fit for A&E because of the current caste of creators. I'm saying it's a "perfect fit" because the post-OT DYOS isn't conducive for the participation of the majority of people who might be so inclined. No big deal, as they can start their own iteration of CFC cartooning, and since they don't, meh.

The former point is saying that what might seem unworkable (DYOS in OT) actually has a history of working fine. The latter is a matter of reason.

 

[GenMarshall]

It was in OT for a few years, then moved to Forum Games in 2006 (I think?), then to A&E in 2010. The move to Forum Games was not one requested by the DYOS'ers (I don't think, I wasn't a contributor at the time), the move to A&E was.

I recall back in the day. That we were basically shoved into the Other Game/Forum Games section because it was seen as something akin to the throw away game threads that were there. Not as something creative. Yet sadly, the prior DYOS threads were purged after a database flush sometime ago within that board.

Choxorn is indeed correct on this as I've been around since the first installment (and the only one who, quasi-contributes) and I know I and others didn't had a say when we were thrown into Forum Games.

It was only around 2007-08 or so that we decided we wanted to try to make this a little bit more serious, if nothing else so that the antics of one particular poster (who has since gotten much less annoying) would stop wrecking everything we tried to do.

I recall, many times that the threads were closed due to people just stopping to give an old flame war on him. That also puts a damper on the enjoyment when a DYOS thread could be closed the next day, just because of a few bad apples.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Let's rewind. You said DYOS couldn't be in OT. I pointed out it thrived in OT. You said that DYOS is a perfect fit for A&E because of the current caste of creators. I'm saying it's a "perfect fit" because the post-OT DYOS isn't conducive for the participation of the majority of people who might be so inclined. No big deal, as they can start their own iteration of CFC cartooning, and since they don't, meh.

The former point is saying that what might seem unworkable (DYOS in OT) actually has a history of working fine. The latter is a matter of reason.

Since I was pretty much unaware of DYOS when it was in OT, how would I have any basis for agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment that it thrived there? What was the actual reason(s) the mods/admins gave for moving it to Other Games?

I said it's a perfect fit for A&E because it's artistic and creative. I didn't just try to get the most recent material moved - I tried to get absolutely everything DYOS-related moved.

I know what it's like to have older threads and archives of material for projects just up and disappear because someone who didn't really know much about it and didn't care decided to throw it away (delete it) without asking if it was something that anyone wanted to save. Been there, went through it on another forum (not CFC), and had two years' worth of creative writing/storytelling vanish because some jerk in that forum's hierarchy didn't understand it, thought it was garbage, and decided to get rid of it in a way that made it impossible to salvage. So when I heard about the missing and deleted DYOS material, I was sympathetic to the requests to move DYOS to a forum where it would be safe from being arbitrarily trashed.

As you say, the other people who were involved can always start up their own project. Nobody is saying they can't (unless they want to start a fight over which group is doing the "real" DYOS - something I doubt the moderators would appreciate having to referee). There's room for all kinds of stories and art in A&E (or OT if you insist on putting it there, although I can't fathom why since it would drop out of sight and mind really fast there).

I wasn't aware of the internal politics of the DYOS people when they were posting their material in OT. So ranting at me for what was said and done and by whom is not a productive way to convince me of your position. I'm going by what I was told back in 2010 - in a series of polite, respectful PMs among myself and a couple of people on behalf of the others, who said they would like to be moved to the new Arts forum. Since what they were involved in was producing art, it was the logical solution.

 

[JollyRoger]

My experiments in the art of trolling are far more likely to stopped down in A&E than OT.

 

[Hygro]

Valka, I'm sorry I won't present my information nicely enough for you.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Valka, I'm sorry I won't present my information nicely enough for you.

The information is the same no matter how you present it. I accept your word that you preferred DYOS while it was in that forum, and that you have what you consider a good reason for that preference. I don't happen to agree with you that OT is the best place for an ongoing interactive storytelling activity, for several reasons I've already made clear.

I'm simply stating that I was asked very courteously by some of the DYOS people - particularly Thorvald of Lym - to consider moving DYOS from Other Games to Arts & Entertainment. I checked out what DYOS was, and concluded that his request made sense.

Hygro, it is pointless to complain to me about storylines and who wrote what or decided what direction to take the stories. That has nothing to do with me, because I wasn't aware that any of that was happening at the time. I wasn't reading any of the DYOS material when it was in OT, so I have no idea what the stories were like or who was participating or what the dynamics of the DYOS folks' interactions were. After the discussions I had with some of them in 2010, I made a point of finding out and keeping up with these matters.

If you want to revive the style of storytelling you prefer, there's no rule that's stopping you.

 

[SamSniped]

...really? I am dense because I said a simple comment that A&E is not the same as IOT and NES? Art and Entertainment is not the same genre of subject as OC; there are logical disagreements on how "separate" IOT and NES are.

Also presenting those who wanted the IOT/NES merge as "change for change sake" ignored that there was grant rational notions behind it.



Boy you are taking a big thing from a simple "two different cases" statement...

My comment was, and is, about the different natures of the cases. I did not make that statement to do and be engaged withad hominems. I concur that the A&E should not be placed into the A&E; I wish to focus on that.



I am sorry but someone who proclaims to be "rational" the statement rather takes a mountain out of a ant hill.

Trying to paint me as not reading what your saying is dishonest and irrational. What I did is say that IOT and NES talks on whether both fruits belong in the same fruit bowl are not akin to the idea of place the A&E chocolate cake with the OT uncooked meat. I guess I could have expressed it better but that is the notion of it; two different levels of topics. IOT and NES are about two game cultures based around things that we can consider as of a similar or even same genre; A&E is about art and OC is about mud fighting.

Overall there is no need for a flame war.

Ailed, just a tip, you might want to learn how to be more diplomatic with your words. I took the things you said as being somewhat condescending/superior-to-you statements, and that might be why Owen is slightly frustrated to you.

 

[trader/warrior]

Being that OT is basically the hub of by far the most activity in the colloseum, I think a good idea for some of these half-dead forums to be moved into sub-forums of OT. If we had A&E and Sci/tech listed right there when browsing OT they would get a LOT more traffic.

About DYOS, the people who are a part of it are of course the ones who should decide what to do with it, but I have to say that when it was in OT I liked it a lot more. It felt like an open community thing that many people read and followed whereas now it seems more like a internal club of a few people doing their thing. Even if there is no actual difference and it is as open as ever, moving it to a semi-dead forum will cause this impression to new people reading it.