Adolf Hitler

[Himalia]

Thats true it would be illegal in Germany due to some of there Nazi legislation and who can blame them. I doubt very much they will do different version for differnt countries. There are only two solutions that i see, the first being the more likely mod him in if you want him. The second being Firaxis have updats on there site for you to download once you have registered or something these updats include alternative leaderheads.

 

[Great Ceasar]

I agree with The Persian... put him in. Besides wouldnt you like to play a bloodlust game with hitler, stalin, mao, napoleon, julius ceasar, ect.... Just a lil history reminder: i dont think that wwII was what he originally had in mind. His idea was to spread east. i dont know if any of you have read any of the memoirs of the german foreign minister at the time, but hitlers biggest objective was to get the communists out of russia. the soviet union was the target from the beginning. the one thing he had foresight on was that if he didnt hit the soviet union then sooner or later they would become too powerful for anyone. He was right.

 

[DonStamos]

Hitler knew what he was doing from Day One.

Proof?

Read Mein Kampf, that was written in 1920-something IIRC, well before the Second World War.

 

[Belcarius]

Hitler knew what he was doing from Day One.

Proof?

Read Mein Kampf, that was written in 1920-something IIRC, well before the Second World War.

It is kind of hard to dispute something written by Hitler that mirrors his actions, but remember he is a politician. Certainly he did intend to invade Russia and create a pure Aryan race. However, it is doubtful that he really always planned the genocide and the Second World War. I recommend you too read Origins by AJP Taylor.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Mein Kampf is pretty dull reading, but it will give you an insight into Hitler's intentions. The copy I read was printed in great Britain in the '30s, and the afterword by some British scholar was... amusing. If only they had known...

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

In my point of view, it is better to leave out Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kenyatta, Mobutu, Sharon etc. To much people to hurt, to much wounds to make.
BUT these forums sohuld be tolerant so much to provide space for mod's including Hitler or Mao or so.
If there were a Second World War mod, Hitler MUST be included there!!!!!!!!

This are some very-clever observation ...

Regards

P.S. : Generally speaking ... it will be probably better to not include also no too recent leaders ( like M.S. Gorbatchev for eg. ).

 

[aidan_b5]

Personally I'm sick of Firaxis' stance on what it thinks constitutes 'Civilization' - the neutered religion model for instance.

The very simple answer to this debate would be to allow users to create their own leaders and assign characteristics to them, that way Firaxis would side step any moral/political discussion over the choice of its included leaders.

That way if a player wishes to play as Hitler, Pol Pot or Queen La La then they can.



It's also worth pointing out that many of the leaders included in the game are responsible for what would now be considered at the very least War Crimes

 

[Belcarius]

Personally I'm sick of Firaxis' stance on what it thinks constitutes 'Civilization' - the neutered religion model for instance.

The very simple answer to this debate would be to allow users to create their own leaders and assign characteristics to them, that way Firaxis would side step any moral/political discussion over the choice of its included leaders.

That way if a player wishes to play as Hitler, Pol Pot or Queen La La then they can.



It's also worth pointing out that many of the leaders included in the game are responsible for what would now be considered at the very least War Crimes

You can be as sick of it as you like, my friend, but after the month's events with GTA San Andreas, I think Firaxis has every right as a company to make sure all ethical bases are covered. The last thing they need is some stupid lawyer organising a bunch of holocaust survivors to sue them for allowing players to be Hitler. And given the way the media has treated the 'hot coffee' scandal, attempting to claim that the user has the choice to download or create such content doesn't work.

 

[ThePersian]

This is true, but now will that erase the game from its historical bases?

Its a shame that people can not practice gaming history without the fear of the bare truth of our past. As i said earlier you dont have to give hitler a special bonus like get rid of judism, you just need his histoic place holder.

I would understand that it is logical and even probibale taht this would not be implemented in the game. Still i fear that it is wrong to "miss represent" Civs by not showing the true dipiction of their leaders.

 

[sir_schwick]

I would understand that it is logical and even probibale taht this would not be implemented in the game. Still i fear that it is wrong to "miss represent" Civs by not showing the true dipiction of their leaders.

Hitler was the leader of the Nazi party, not the German civlization. A much better embodiment of German values and abilities would be leaders such as Bismark and Barbarossa, scientists such as Oppenheimer and Einstein, or writers such as Thomas Mann.

While it would be fun to crush or join the Axis powers, this particular leader would also cause problems in Germany. Sometimes such extenuating circumstances restrict your options.

You can be as sick of it as you like, my friend, but after the month's events with GTA San Andreas, I think Firaxis has every right as a company to make sure all ethical bases are covered. The last thing they need is some stupid lawyer organising a bunch of holocaust survivors to sue them for allowing players to be Hitler. And given the way the media has treated the 'hot coffee' scandal, attempting to claim that the user has the choice to download or create such content doesn't work.

My response to this will get OFF TOPIC, so you have been warned..........

Spoiler OFF TOPIC RESPONSE :

This latest assault on computer and console game entertainment is part of an age old cycle of politicians trying to court their middle-aged constituents by attacking the institutions of the young. Being a college student, it is easy to see that console games, and to a certain extent PC games, have become this generation's staple form of entertainment. This medium is not that well saturated among people above the age of 35. We are the computer game generation while those older are either the MTV generation or even the Captain Kangaroo generation. It is easy and quite cynical for politicians to attack institutions of the young which have similar displays of violence and sex as those of the MTV generation.

The youth have always been an easy target whether it be Heavy Metal and pot in the sixties or violent computer games in the late 90s. That being said, it is time that we tell companies to screw those people who are less likely to buy their product anyway. Those gamers of wiser years can see through the cynicism and misrepresentations and will still buy good games such as Civilization and Total War. Also, those concerned with the vulnerability of modding likely have no real knowledge of it. Not meant as an attack but an observation from a paranoid youth.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Hitler in the game wouldn't cause CIV to be banned in Germany. Would need some pretty disgusting stuff (like KZ city imps, and the Lebensraum Great Wonder) to face legal problems.
But, anything 'glorifying' the Nazis may not be sold to minors. And subsequently not in supermarkets etc.
Not to speak of bad press.
Hitler in a WW2 Scen wouldn't hurt anyone, OTOH.
It's not Hitler's image itself that is banned. It's considering Hitler the Great Leader of the German Civilization that would fulfill the glorification part in my eyes already.
And IMHO anyone here who sees Hitler as a 'great leader' needs to wake up as well. That's either childish ignorance, or fascination by Nazism.

 

[DrMadd]

Jesus was not implacable. He was not stiff, nor was he self-righteous, or any of that. He taught a message of peace, love, and yes, a certain amount of tolerance. What man in his infinite capacity for corruption, has done with his teachings- well that's a different ball game altogether.

Hitler: Maybe as a military leader or something- not as a leader head. He was not German, first of all. He was Austrian. I am ok with Hitler as a great leader but not as THE leader. And I'll tell you why I'm ok with it. Despite his evil, he was a huge player in Germany's history, like it or not. Besides Russia had Stalin in Civ3 and probably will in Civ4 in a similar capacity.

 

[brinko]

what the gaming community should do is give hitler a new name without telling anyone, like huffer or hurtgen, somthing other then hitler. that way, the game can have a darkside that only the undergrounder would know, and sensitive little sissies wont get hurt.

 

[Trajan13]

what the gaming community should do is give hitler a new name without telling anyone, like huffer or hurtgen, somthing other then hitler. that way, the game can have a darkside that only the undergrounder would know, and sensitive little sissies wont get hurt.

You know, I swore I would avoid this kind of debate, but someone needs to take issue with this.

"Sensitive little Sissies"?

Our bad for being sensitive about the Holocaust! I mean 10 million innocents herded into camps and killed like animals? Yep... being senstitive about that makes me a little sissy.

And also our bad for being sensitive to German Law. Just an entire country with a large gaming market that Firaxis might like... meh.

And our bad too for being sensitive to the fact that Hitler was actually a horrible leader, bankrupting his nation, starting an unwinnable war, killing millions, and as the end came, taking it out on his own people and eventually killing himself rather than face justice. The result of his rule - the annihilation of the German state, the destruction of it's industry and infrastructure, the complete loss of presigue and foreign occupation. In fact few other leaders in history can be said to have failed themselves, thier nations and the world so spectacularly as Hitler. Sorry for being sensitive to historical reality.

Feel free to mod in Hitler. Feel free to even put up your meager case for having the official version include him. But calling people sensitive about ADOLF HITLER "sissies" is just not going to fly, period.

 

[DrMadd]

Personally, and I'll probably be flamed for this one, I think he would have been exactly what Germany needed had he not killed the Jews. That was surprisingly Un-german thinking on his part. He locked away 3 million people- people who unlocked and welcomed into his nation would have aided Germany's recovering economy and could have fought in the Fatherland's Armies. I think he should have made it clear that Russia had been his target. He might have gotten others to aid him.

The "Sissies" Argument- I understand why some would not want him included, but for people with a sinister bent, he'd be just what they want. Me.. I'm hoping they give me Richard the Lion-heart. Rule Britannia!

 

[Atrebates]

I think (well, hope) Brinko was joking on the 'Sissies' thing.
This talk of Hitler as a great leader wouldn't wash in Germany, he was absolutly not a great leader, they are meant to represent an epitome of that nation's great qualities, a hero, someone that the nation is proud of- this ain't Hitler.
He did do some good things in his early years, but not through any genius of his own (which is why he is not worthy of inclusion) the depression was broken by massive state employment on the Autobahn and similar projects (because he wanted these glories built for Germany, yes true, but did he fully comprehend the effects?...). Read up on his gov, its interesting stuff, he spoke in visions and his aids actually invented/ implemented projects.

 

[DrMadd]

By the same account, I don't think anyone wants Stalin, either.

 

[DonStamos]

Personally, and I'll probably be flamed for this one, I think he would have been exactly what Germany needed had he not killed the Jews. That was surprisingly Un-german thinking on his part. He locked away 3 million people- people who unlocked and welcomed into his nation would have aided Germany's recovering economy and could have fought in the Fatherland's Armies. I think he should have made it clear that Russia had been his target. He might have gotten others to aid him.

The "Sissies" Argument- I understand why some would not want him included, but for people with a sinister bent, he'd be just what they want. Me.. I'm hoping they give me Richard the Lion-heart. Rule Britannia!

He might have gotten help fighting Russia, but Russia did not become Hitler's target until the destruction of France, which was Hitler's true target, the man even says as much in Mein Kampf.

 

[brinko]

i take back the sensitive little sissies comment, with respect to history and the moderators and viewers of this forum.

In the near future, i will be playing civ 4, and i will spawn a prophet, and i swear if any
meager nation destroys him or her, i will seek vengence apon that religion or nation or whatever it is, as a whole.

And I choose to do so, because it is only a GAME. and it made me angry.

Having hitler in or not will not change how I play it, the tactics that i choose, nor the emotions involved. In reality, Im just gonna hit ten times harder, with a different name and flag.

What happens when U abandon a city of 5,000,000 people and only get 40 - 50 thousand workers?
What happens when u take workers of another foreign county and hit the "join city" button, then hurry production?
What happens when u disband workers or settlers?

Tell me Tragan 13 what happens?

all i asked were for some improvements and units, to make what is already there, more effective.

The truth is that u cannot deny the truth of Human Civilization, Its ruthless, unjustified, barbaric, and always will be primitive. u can only expose it and let it be as it is, for any good or understanding to come from it.
Hitler wasnt the first and I hope that im wrong but wont be the last.

Yes show compassion for those victims, I do not disagree. But to become as historicaly accurate and uncensored I do agree.

 

[DrMadd]

Brinko: Or you could do like I do.. If I capture a city, and it culture flips while I'm still at war with the mother country, when I re-take it, I burn it down.