American Race Relations and why Obama will lose!

[Trajan12]

I have met very few successful people that dont work hard...but this is just a common sense thing, I shouldnt have to provide evidence for it.

And if certain cultures dont value hard work as much...then why do certain groups of people tend to work harder?

I don't think he's denying that the majority of successful people work hard. But probably that hard work inevitably leads to success. Which it doesn't for everyone.

 

[Masquerouge]

That was a nice piece, but what I do not get is why what he said makes him a conservative...?

 

[luiz]

I agree with some of the things that guy said. I do not currently think that the worst thing facing AAs is racism but only because of the severity of the many other problems that community has. But all of the problems of that community are the remnants of racism. I have to laugh at the fools who pat themselves on the back over their reasoning skills when they point out that no one alive today was a slave as if that ends the discussion with a pwned. Have you no understanding of the pervasive history of overt and institutional racism until just a few years ago in the US. While there may be no former slaves alive today there are plenty of people whose fathers grew up with the threat of being beaten to death if they looked at a white person wrong, There are plenty of families that were denied entry into the stabilizing forces of the middle class due to overt racism in jobs and education. You need look no further than the thread on James Watson to find a present day overt racist who directs one of the leading research institutions in the country and is undoubtedly denying black applicants an equal opportunity. I’m happy to argue about solutions and approaches that differ from the current ones but only with people who acknowledge the history and societal responsibility for the situation.

Many Jews alive today were victims of institutionalised racism in Europe to a degree never experienced by most if not all blacks alive today; they too were not allowed to look at "aryan" women and they too would get beaten to death for doing that (or for doing nothing). Their goods were confiscated and they were forced into miserable concentration camps. And today the jews in Germany do just fine.

Of course the two cases are different, but it just goes to show that no wound is deep enough to keep a people down forever. If the blacks are down today, it is because of this whole victim's mentality that the black leadership and white lefties like you refuse to let go. Accepting responsability for one's future is the only way to progress, at an individual, societal and national level. To say that there is still widespread racism in american society is quite frankly ridiculous. People in the US go through pathetic lenghts just to show how non-racist they are. Racism is considered the ultimate evil.

You can't blame the oppressor forever, not if you want to go anywhere. Watson may be a racist, but black people need to learn to deal with that sort of comment. And the reaction was so strong that even he, probably a racist, already took what he said back.

The OP article is spot on.

 

[luiz]

That was a nice piece, but what I do not get is why what he said makes him a conservative...?

It doesn't, but the man is a self-defined conservative.

 

[Masquerouge]

It doesn't, but the man is a self-defined conservative.

Ok Cos I agree with him

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I have met very few successful people that dont work hard...but this is just a common sense thing, I shouldnt have to provide evidence for it.

Its not a common sense thing. Thats a slogan not a reality. I'm much more successfull than before and even though I work its not as hard, but that just me. People that are sucessfull sometimes work hard and sometimes they have just figured out how to be more efficient at producing that sucess while others inherit it. Which is why you have things like investments and computers. Efficiency equals sucess not hard work which may mean a lack of efficiency, bad decision making or poor luck.

Your personal experience or what you notice doesn't mean anything when it comes to making generalizations and presenting them to others. Its only used to form your personal opinion and biases. How hard do you think the people work that made the clothes that you wear? You think the people who market them or the receptionist at the corporate office for that company works harder than the person at the sweatshop or the factory in China? No but they get paid a lot more and their qulaity of life is probably much better. Maybe you still consider them more sucessfull. Yes you do have to provide evidence and not just anecdotal evidence but something that actually includes hard workers and lazy ones from all walks of life.

And if certain cultures dont value hard work as much...then why do certain groups of people tend to work harder?

Who works harder and how did you figure that out. Personal experience, because you live everywhere at once and keep statistics?

 

[Norseone]

Its not a common sense thing. Thats a slogan not a reality. I'm much more successfull than before and even though I work its not as hard, but that just me. People that are sucessfull sometimes work hard and sometimes they have just figured out how to be more efficient at producing that sucess while others inherit it. Which is why you have things like investments and computers. Efficiency equals sucess not hard work which may mean a lack of efficiency, bad decision making or poor luck.

Your personal experience or what you notice doesn't mean anything when it comes to making generalizations and presenting them to others. Its only used to form your personal opinion and biases. How hard do you think the people work that made the clothes that you wear? You think the people who market them or the receptionist at the corporate office for that company works harder than the person at the sweatshop or the factory in China? No but they get paid a lot more and their qulaity of life is probably much better. Maybe you still consider them more sucessfull. Yes you do have to provide evidence and not just anecdotal evidence but something that actually includes hard workers and lazy ones from all walks of life.




Who works harder and how did you figure that out. Personal experience, because you live everywhere at once and keep statistics?

Well really what I meant when I said hard work leads to success is basically if you don't work hard you will never have the opportunity to be succesful...and mind you sometimes luck will make a lazy person succesful. But, if somone works hard in school they will probably do better than if they didnt work hard. This means they will be more succesful than they would have been without hard work. So perhaps not everyone who works hard will be succesful...but if you want to increase your own chances of being succesful you should work hard. I dont think that type of statement is one that needs proof...maybe you should provide proof if you dont believe that.

As for certain cultures dont work as hard...well. In America there is a culture group that is defined by their disdane for work they are present at most schools, they are called "Slackers" they do not work as hard as most kids tend to, much less the group usually called "nerds" that tend to work much harder. So that is at least one culture that works harder than another.

And in America its plain as can be certain families tend to push their kids to work harder in school. Some parents are very concerned about education, and some take a less active role...this translates often into how hard the kids work. I'm sorry but this is one area where you can make generalizations. I dont understand what your problem with this is? Anyway, what in particular I was talking about is the Kids I know from recently immigrated asian families say their parents were always very concerned about education..somtimes to extremes. Most kids from this group iv talked to agree with that sentiment.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Well really what I meant when I said hard work leads to success is basically if you don't work hard you will never have the opportunity to be succesful...and mind you sometimes luck will make a lazy person succesful. But, if somone works hard in school they will probably do better than if they didnt work hard. This means they will be more succesful than they would have been without hard work. So perhaps not everyone who works hard will be succesful...but if you want to increase your own chances of being succesful you should work hard. I dont think that type of statement is one that needs proof...maybe you should provide proof if you dont believe that. .

Those are differen't statements and the first sentence contradicts the others. Otherwise I never disputed anything about hard work increasing your chances of sucess. Hard work can increase your chance of sucess among other factors if that hard work is used in the right place. But what you do with that work is just as important as how hard you work. If you work in the software industry your chances of being mediocre and lazy at both school and work while being sucessfull are much higher.

And in America its plain as can be certain families tend to push their kids to work harder in school. Some parents are very concerned about education, and some take a less active role...this translates often into how hard the kids work. I'm sorry but this is one area where you can make generalizations. I dont understand what your problem with this is? Anyway, what in particular I was talking about is the Kids I know from recently immigrated asian families say their parents were always very concerned about education..somtimes to extremes. Most kids from this group iv talked to agree with that sentiment.

I never said you can't make generalizations, just that your anecdotal personal experience doesn't make good evidence for making broad generalizations. If you do make one and someone challenges it you should have something better than I talked to some asian kids and they said.....

When I lived in Seattle the part of town where more of the violence took place was a majority Asian and a majority of the gangs were asian gangs. It was an area where a lot of asian families had immigrated to the states under less favorable circumstances and the gang activitiy was actually imported from China, Vietnam and Cambodia etc. Concern for education was on par with everyone else and the reality did nothing to change anyones perception of blacks or asians. You could live in a different part of town and have a different experience. People strongly believe the stereotype because they don't have the sense to look beyond their limited world view. I live in Japan, have lived in Korea and visited most east asian countries, they have good families and bad ones. But outside of Japan the poverty makes the US look spectacular for the most part. To that my mom is a teacher so I have met many families from different backgrounds that did push their kids very hard and some of them did well while some failed miserably.

 

[Inhalaattori]

It is very hard for me to understand that people in USA put so much weight on race. Things like slavery is also very often taken as an example of racism.

After all race had nothing to with slavery. Africans were not brought to America, becouse of their race. They were brought to America becouse there was not enough europeans willing to migrate to new world and native americans were dying of diseases.

Many people in USA think that europeans just went to Africa and kidnapped some black people. Truth is that africans were bought from slave traders, who often were black.

Most people dont even know that more black slaves were brought to arab/muslim nations than to Americas. Were is that arab/muslim guilt? Only difference was that black slaves brought to muslim nations, were often castrated.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

After all race had nothing to with slavery. Africans were not brought to America, becouse of their race. They were brought to America becouse there was not enough europeans willing to migrate to new world and native americans were dying of diseases.

You fail. Slavery had laws, that clearly claimed that blacks were inferior beings not quit equivalent to a man and therefore it was perfectly dandy to whip them and make them dance for you.

Eurpeans weren't willing to go so hire blacks to enslave blacks and make them go because it wouldn't be exceptable to hire Eurpeans to kidnapp Eurpeans or blacks to kidnapp Europeans because they were starting to believe that even poor Europeans were not hoofed animals.

 

[Inhalaattori]

You fail. Slavery had laws, that clearly claimed that blacks were inferior beings not quit equivalent to a man and therefore it was perfectly dandy to whip them and make them dance for you.

Eurpeans weren't willing to go so hire blacks to enslave blacks and make them go because it wouldn't be exceptable to hire Eurpeans to kidnapp Eurpeans or blacks to kidnapp Europeans because they were starting to believe that even poor Europeans were not hoofed animals.

I believe you are not aware that there was also lots of FREE blacks in Europe during the time of slavery.

I meant that slavery had nothing to do with racism AT THE BEGINNING. People started to have racist thoughts only after the slavery had been running for some time, people started to think that slavery and blacks were some way connected. So one could say that slavery crated racism. Not vice versa.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I believe you are not aware that there was also lots of FREE blacks in Europe during the time of slavery..

Well you believe a lot of things that aren't true. I knew about it, its common knowledge as well as irrelevant.

I meant that slavery had nothing to do with racism AT THE BEGINNING.

It did. You can site other valid reasons as well, racism is one of them.

People started to have racist thoughts only after the slavery had been running for some time.

Thats a lie.

People started to think that slavery and blacks were some way connected. So one could say that slavery crated racism. Not vice versa.

Only if they didn't know what they were talking about.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Thats a lie.

No, he's right. Take colonial Jamestown and Virginia during the first fifty years of existence for example. There were many recorded instances of blacks and whites working together, escaping their masters together, and some instances of marrying each other. Nor were there any 'lynching' or contemporary records suggesting any generalizing racist discrimination. This is because poor whites and blacks at that time were in the same status behind that of the rich plutocrats. A few African American slaves were able to buy their own freedom even and buy significant amounts of land, grow moderately rich through trade with white landowners, and buy their own black slaves even. There is no good historical evidence that indicates the existence of serious racism in the 1607-1675 (85) period of Virgina's history.

It was only after Slavery started to replace contractual labor that rich people in Jamestown had started to hold more condescending and racist views on their slaves. They used all sorts of crap to justify holding onto slavery, all the more when the rich landowners concluded that contractual (usually white) labor had been too unsafe. There's a reason why overtly racist laws started appearing on the books only around the 1690's, when there was a perceived economic necessity for it.

ps: sources? Give me time, everything I said was learned from books and not from the internets.

 

[Legal_My_Deagle]

Thank you so much for posting this, I can't tell you how much it pleases me to see some meaningful progressive discussion of the racial issue.