Androgyny

[feline_dacat]

Inspired by Mathilda and Cierden in another thread - i was reminded of the idea of androgyny. Androgyny is a very interesting concept. For those who don't want to read the article at Wiki, Androgyny refers to mixing of gender roles or discarding gender roles all together.

I like the idea that there shouldn't be gender roles in a society - some of them are so old fashioned and don't make much of a difference these days. I suppose some are still perpetuated for a reason though and they can be important. Some roles just aren't physically suited to one gender or another - for instance women CAN be firefighters, but men are better as they tend to have more strength. Oh, and now men may not be needed for reproduction in the future, what with that embryo formed from an ovum but men make sperm for a reason...

What are your thoughts on androgyny? I know a lot of people are repulsed by the idea and i've never heard any explanation as to why - usually they say things like "Ugh, I don't know - its just wrong." I'm quite open to the idea that men can be effeminate and not be scorned for being so.

Lets say you disagree with androgyny and give the argument that "men should be men"... the vast majority of men are still likely to conform to the roles associated with being male, so whats the problem with those who choose not to? Or vice versa - vast majority of women enjoy conforming to the female role - why is it disagreeable that some choose not to?
Why not overstep the boundaries and defy gender roles if you so wish?

 

[cgannon64]

Gender roles make sense.

 

[SonicX]

I like gender roles, the male gender role is way more interesting and don't involve emotional stuff

Suffice to say, I don't like the idea. It's not only because society forces the sexes into a gender role that differences exist, but the sexes also choose to do different things. Why do all the girls do medics, communication, psychology or philosophy and why do all the guys do informatics, economics, politics and engineering ?
Gender or sex ?
Don't know, don't really care either, the result won't change.

 

[Birdjaguar]

With Mick Jagger in 1964 androgeny went public and mainstream. It peaked in the "it's fashionable to be gay" early 80s until aids reared it's ugly head. Mick and David bowie are probably to two best known of the androgenous entertainers.

 

[cgannon64]

Do we agree that androgyny is now back to its normal state, which is being creepy?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Do we agree that androgyny is now back to its normal state, which is being creepy?

Probably so, but the precedent has been set that somebody very cool can be less than stoutly masculine and that there are other acceptable standards than the pre 60s stereotype.

 

[Keirador]

Androgyny is a foolish and futile denial of nature. Men and women are different, and have different (but equal and equally important) roles. The misguided nature of the notion of androgyny may not be as readily apparent as a man thinking he should be a bird and leaping from a building, but it's along the same lines.

 

[Kyriakos]

Androgeny -the word is formed from the greek words andras (man) and gyne (woman) - seems to be ussually more about an attempt to react to what one thinks he/she is expected to be like, rather than an attempt to really behave as they feel suits them. Androgeny itself has nothing to do with bisexuality or homosexuality.

Anyway when one gets to really know someone from the other gender then the social roles dont mean that much.

 

[North King]

Roles should not be by gender, they should be decided on a person by person basis. If a person wishes to conform to the mainstream for their gender, I have no problem, and I also have no problem if they wish not to. There are variations within a gender, and we should recognize them.

 

[Keirador]

There are variations within a gender, and we should recognize them.

I would agree. But an attempt to completey eliminate gender roles in society is wrong-headed. It's nothing I'm very passionate about, however, because I know it will never happen. Most individuals have a strong sense of gender identity and are quite comfortable with it. Most women would rather nurture their children than have their husband do it. Most men would rather provide for his family than have his wife do it. Most women would prefer to be protected by their man than be a protector, and most men would rather protect than be protected. As politically incorrect as this may be, it's just how people are naturally inclined.

 

[feline_dacat]

Well, i know that gender roles make sense and that there are still differences in what men and women choose to do. It may be pointless, but *shrug* people do pointless things - watch TV, hurt themselves (Jackass, anyone?), have sex for fun, post on a forum , enjoy looking pretty...

I repeat my last two questions: why is it disagreeable that some choose not to conform to gender roles? Why not overstep the boundaries and defy gender roles if you so wish?

Take me for an example (be careful what you say, gentlemen - i take offence easily). I like defying my prescripted gender roles! I enjoy posting on a male-dominated forum, I like gaming, I like playing in male dominated sports, I like wearing androgynous clothing now and again etc.. but I don't deny that they're usually only for males! I don't know why so many people are so ruffled by my behaviour.

As a side note, I LIKE androgynous men! Dirt (bassist, second from the left) from The Bravery is rather dishy.

What is it about that kinda look that people don't like? Is it PURELY the fact it makes him look more feminine?

 

[Keirador]

I repeat my last two questions: why is it disagreeable that some choose not to conform to gender roles? Why not overstep the boundaries and defy gender roles if you so wish?

I think we have different ideas of what defines a gender role. I find nothing disagreeable about you participating in activities more commonly liked by males, but from what I've seen, you still prefer to be thought of as feminine, despite certain tomboyish tendencies.

What is it about that kinda look that people don't like? Is it PURELY the fact it makes him look more feminine?

Uhh. . . yes. Heterosexual people are attracted to the opposite sex.

 

[Kyriakos]

He doesnt look androgenistic. He looks more like those stereotypical american/italians who comb their hair all of the time

People's behaviour is vastly affected by where their center of interest is. Someone who is into thought/literature or math/physics etc will tend to be realising himself in a more theoretical and introvert manner. Other people realise themselves more in relation to the outside world, and there it can be very important for them what kind of clothes they wear, and things like that.

 

[feline_dacat]

Androgeny -the word is formed from the greek words andras (man) and gyne (woman) - seems to be ussually more about an attempt to react to what one thinks he/she is expected to be like, rather than an attempt to really behave as they feel suits them. Androgeny itself has nothing to do with bisexuality or homosexuality.

Anyway when one gets to really know someone from the other gender then the social roles dont mean that much.

I'd disagree with that last sentence. Some of my friends (male) get so annoyed with me when I tell them that I don't like children and don't plan to have any. A friend of mine always say "But you're a GIRL - you're meant to like kids."

Also - I'd agree that mostly I'm rebelling against the roles I'm supposed to fill... but I don't think I'd have that kinda notion if i weren't inclined to androgyny in the first place. I primarily had female friends back in primary school up until i was 16 so I could've easily fell into that girly-girl category in the first place and bypassed all tomboyness but i always preferred male company.
I'm still waiting to see where I fall - androgynous, girly or tomboyish.

 

[feline_dacat]

I think we have different ideas of what defines a gender role. I find nothing disagreeable about you participating in activities more commonly liked by males, but from what I've seen, you still prefer to be thought of as feminine, despite certain tomboyish tendencies.

Consider yourself excused from the question if you aren't somehow offended/dislike what i do There are people out there who are mortally offended by my actions lol

Uhh. . . yes. Heterosexual people are attracted to the opposite sex.

I didn't mean "why aren't you attracted to him!?" - I meant more in the way why most men prefer not to emulate his look (Make-up, tight trousers etc...)

He doesnt look androgenistic. He looks more like those stereotypical american/italians who comb their hair all of the time

Actually - he can be quite androgynous. I'd find a better picture of him but there isn't one he wears quite extreme make-up (think Adam Ant) and tight tight jeans. He's also quite slim - very little muscle and very little fat. He has also got quite a pretty face - one that wouldn't too be out of place on a lady.

 

[cgannon64]

The problem with androgyny is that it either denies the existence of gender roles, which is wrong, or it merely reverses them, which is stupid.

If a man acts effeminate, he isn't defeating the idea of masculinity or femininity, he is just choosing one that he is not. I cannot think of a collection of actions or attitudes that would be neither masculine nor feminine; it wouldn't exist.

 

[Keirador]

I didn't mean "why aren't you attracted to him!?" - I meant more in the way why most men prefer not to emulate his look (Make-up, tight trousers etc...)

Well, I think the same logic applies. Most women are attracted to manly men, not girly men. Most men wish to attract women. Therefor, they emulate manly men, not girly men.

 

[feline_dacat]

Well, I think the same logic applies. Most women are attracted to manly men, not girly men. Most men wish to attract women. Therefor, they emulate manly men, not girly men.

So are there any other reasons why effeminate men are disagreeable to you?

 

[Keirador]

Not really, except that on a subconscious level it's repellent because it's unnatural.

 

[Kyriakos]

What is more crucial in how one behaves, gender wise, is how he/she views sex. You can argue about social conventions and peer pressure and stereotypes etc all you want, but in reality all of these are just pale phantoms in relation to how you feel about sex, which to you is very real.