[BtS] DIPLOMACY: a mod for Diplogames!

Alright, I have tomorrow and potentially wednesday off, so I'm going to try and put a huge dent into this mod. I have to add some units Bakuel made (fortunately I already had most of them), then I really wanted to get the LHs FINISHED. I think I am going to ditch the Lalibela LH for now and simply add Igor's Menelik (I am changing the crown though, for sure). So Lalibela is out and Menelik II is in, if anyone wants to make the obligatory AI personality and Diplomacy text that would be appreciated.

So to recap, here's what I'm doing as we speak:
1) Finish latest unit-update
2) Polish off the LHs (make sure their all updated with appropriate shading, new BGs, etc.)
3) Add the Flavian Amphitheatre and test it out.
4) Release the next playtest. :goodjob:

After that, I want to try and breeze through all of the new features, then I THINK we'll be ready to roll... hopefully...

Personally I'd make him Expansive/Industrious, and give him a placeholder of Mansa's AI, but with Lincoln's war stats for now.
 
Is this mod actually available somewhere?

No.
Diplomacy 1 was 3.17, and won't be reuploaded. Diplomacy 2 is maybe like 3/4 done and is nearing its newest playtest.
 
Is this mod actually available somewhere?

It doesn't work for 3.19 right now, so if you have an older version of civ (i.e. 3.17) I could send it to you, but it isn't as updated as this one is right now. Some people have the beta version though, and I could actually send you a link (I will take it down in a day): HERE YOU GO. Remember, DL as soon as you can because I'm taking it down within 24 hours.

If you want to playtest the next version, and I suggest you do I could pencil you in. But you have to PM me. This next playtest is invitation only, so I am breaking my own protocol to get you in. I do expect you to actually playtest though, so if you do PM me, and I decide to let you play it please do that. If you don't I will be upset. The next update is going to be pretty awesome.

So just to summarize, the link I posted here is for the LAST playtest. PM me if you want to try the new playtest, which will be out in a day or two hopefully.
 
It doesn't work for 3.19 right now, so if you have an older version of civ (i.e. 3.17) I could send it to you, but it isn't as updated as this one is right now. Some people have the beta version though, and I could actually send you a link (I will take it down in a day): HERE YOU GO. Remember, DL as soon as you can because I'm taking it down within 24 hours.

If you want to playtest the next version, and I suggest you do I could pencil you in. But you have to PM me. This next playtest is invitation only, so I am breaking my own protocol to get you in. I do expect you to actually playtest though, so if you do PM me, and I decide to let you play it please do that. If you don't I will be upset. The next update is going to be pretty awesome.

So just to summarize, the link I posted here is for the LAST playtest. PM me if you want to try the new playtest, which will be out in a day or two hopefully.

Excellent. I am trying the link you gave me and have sent you a PM.
 
Good to have you on board.

This unit update thing might take longer than I previously intended. So I'm going to go ahead and give the next playtest's release an open-ended date, meaning I'll send it out when it is ready. I just want to make sure the units look good since I have to do that anyway and I don't forsee many more unit updates, unless some crazy stuff comes out by the time I release the mod. If Bakuel's Turks are finished by the time the mod is released I'll put those in.

I am also slightly disappointed that I have now seen a few issues that SHOULD HAVE been noticed during playtesting. For example; the Indian Cuirassier wasn't tagged properly so caused a crash. I know you guys are volunteers, and I shouldn't expect you to catch everything, but it kind of disappoints me because this should have been caught with the first playtest. Of course it is primarily my fault, as I probably should have noticed this, but it does take time for me to compile and prepare the mod properly for each playtest, and a long time to upload it, write up the PMs and organize sending them out. It upsets me when I do this stuff in vain, I realize a lot of you are using the playtests as a means to get new unreleased material, which is fine with me, but it is upsetting when you are doing this and not keeping up with your end of the bargain. So to summarize, I appreciate the help I'm getting, but when I go through this trouble and see clear examples of people NOT playtesting it really bothers me. I know which ones are giving me feedback and which ones are not, and it will be noted when I hand out the next playtest. You should also realize that when you fail to report something it winds up wasting more time in the mod's release. I tried to give specific assignments for civs for the express purpose of speeding up the process, but when people shirk their assigned civs it does a lot of damage.

Nobody said you had to do this, if you volunteer I do expect you to do what I asked.

On the positive note, there are a majority of you who ARE giving me very useful feedback, and while sometimes this may delay things (RPGs awesome feedback has prompted me to undertake this huge unit update, and the mod will be better for having it, that's just one of the many examples) ultimately it is for the betterment and polish of the mod. To guys like cybrxkhan, Madman, Absinthe, Edgecrusher, TAdF et al who have given me direct material I can not thank you enough for the help, it means a lot to me and gives me morale when things aren't going so well sometimes.
 
Rest assured you'll get a comment from me, and I will try to be brutally honest if you so desire. I have been spending a good month downloading, trying, then subsequently deleting mods because I did not find them as all-encompassing as yours is. I have never been more pleased! I STILL can't decide which civ has the best unit graphics, and thus, which civ I want to play as! The updated graphics for the Greek and Russian wooden ships makes it even harder, not to mention the updated Portuguese graphics for everything else.
 
If you still need it, I can write up a Menelik II personality, I had one in the works then Mechaerik posted the LH, but never got around to finalizing it/creating the files for use in the mod I played with.

I will revive it and get it together, thought most of the work I could do would have to be done while I am at work.

I am looking forward to the new Graphics Card I ordered, hopefully that will solve the computer issue I have been having.
 
Apologies for my feedback being somewhat limited so far. I'm a fulltime dad and I work from home so my time and focus can be pretty limited especially when combined with my own modding project that I unexpectedly ended up releasing. This is why I declined the last playtest, I knew I wouldn't be able to focus well enough on it. This time around though should be much better as my workload has relaxed a fair bit.

I don't recall if I mentioned already or not but for this next playtest I'll go through all the text files and make them properly Mac compatible for you. This was quite a hindrance on the last playtest I was involved with as I was never too sure if an error was genuine or just text encoding related.

On another topic I was looking at AbsintheRed's charts of the UUs. Hopefully I'm not too far behind the play but here's some suggestions:


Huszar:

Reading up on these, they were reknown for their tactic of 'late concentration' - charging widespread and moving randomly until the last moment when they converged into a formation and struck. This made them extremely effective against inaccurate muskets; I'd give them an attack and/or defense bonus against Musketman or even all Gunpowder units. A slightly raised withdraw chance would be appropriate too. If need be it could be balanced by a city attack penalty.

I think it is also best to keep them as a Cuirassier not Cavalry replacement for this very reason too, as even when armed with muskets themselves the lance was still crucial to their success.


Maccabee:

I imagine these as ancient partisans hiding in the hills and seizing the moment to recapture their cities. I'd suggest a free Guerilla I promotion and a 10% city attack bonus. I'd also suggest that they replace the Swordsman (currently replaces the Axeman) as this suits both the era and weaponry better. Swordsman already have a 10% city attack bonus so this fits thematically as well, Maccabee could have 20% instead.


Immortal:

Good call making the Immortal an Axeman replacement. Looks like the stats haven't changed yet though. They were a very mobile foot unit with ranged as well as melee capability, I think this could be represented well by a free first strike.


Misc:

Gallic Warriors could certainly use an additional bonus in addition to their Guerilla promotion as well.

Mech Inf should definitely require oil.

Definitely rename Praetorian as Legionary, reduce strength to 7, increase cost to 50.

Phalanx should be renamed Hoplite to be consistent.

Quechua most definitely need their bonus vs Archers reduced to 50%.
 
Sorry for venting at everyone, I was actually talking about a specific couple of people, but for the most part the responses have been good. Let me just adress the last few posts quickly:

@ Ignatius: I'm glad you like the mod so far, the next edition is going to be much better both in terms of graphics and material, when people get excited about the mod that definitely boosts my morale.

@ Edgecrusher; I'd definitely like to get the Menelik personality. I've decided not to update the leaderheads for this playtest. I'll do it for the next (and hopefully final, although I have my doubts) playtest. I'll say why in a second.

@ Xyth; I really like the Huszar idea, I will probably do that, or implement a variation on that. I am a bit against adding Maccabees as a swordsman replacement, for a very stupid reason; I like the Swordsman graphics I have for Israel and I don't much like the Axeman graphics. I suppose I COULD change this, and you do make good points, although I might leave it at Axeman and add a city attack bonus. As far as the immortal goes I haven't really altered their stats since the first playtest, so if I have time before I decide to release the next one I'll change them along with all of the other UUs (stats and names). For the Gallic Warriors and Legion, I doubt I'll alter them because I feel as if I have changed enough and I didn't want to depart from stock-BtS too much. I might up the Legion's cost though, and I could be convinced to give the Gallic Warriors some type of extra bonus.

Okay, now for the general update. I just spent the last few hours looking at every single unit for every single civ in the mod. Right now it looks really really nice, but unfortunately there were a lot of issues with uniform scaling (which is going to suck to take care of) and a few other odds and ends I have to take care of. I would post the list here, but written down on college-ruled paper it is four and a half pages long. :eek:

What this means is, I will not be updating the LHs for this go around because this is going to be pretty time consuming. The reason it will take so long is because it requires me to load and reload the game over and over again, without FPKing anything, so it takes a while to load like that. I am also going to be busy for the next couple weeks with RL stuff, so there is kind of the perfect storm of delays coming at me right now. On the plus side; I have played a lot of flavored mods, and this one is going to kick some serious ass. Any unit that remotely sucked has been chucked by me and replaced with one that doesn't. So the whole thing should look really awesome by the time you guys get your hands on it. The wonders are all working fine and pretty sweet (although I haven't tried the new Flavian Amphitheatre yet). The only real issues right now are the UUs and UBs (balancing, names, etc.) and figuring out how to manage the Slavery/Serfdom civics. Other than that things are looking pretty good so far.

I had an idea though, for those "projects" I couldn't get in the game. Is there a way to create a different type of building, like instead of a wonder call it "National Achievement" or something like that? I have some statues/memorials I could use, but the idea is that they would be un-rushable. This is the only way I could think of getting those in the game without actually editing SDK. Ideally they'd have their own civilopedia section, I could have both Global Achievements and National Achievements (for things like Womans Suffrage, Theory of Evolution, Cure for Cancer, Magellan's Expedition, Organized Labor, etc.), what I envision for most of them is that they would have setbacks and benefits. Like organized labor would have some type of monetary loss for production or something like that, as one possible example. So they'd be entirely optional to build based on what you need to happen.
 
Immortal:

Good call making the Immortal an Axeman replacement. Looks like the stats haven't changed yet though. They were a very mobile foot unit with ranged as well as melee capability, I think this could be represented well by a free first strike.

Starting with March is also a good bonus. Lots of mods do this, but I think they have a point.
 
I had an idea though, for those "projects" I couldn't get in the game. Is there a way to create a different type of building, like instead of a wonder call it "National Achievement" or something like that? I have some statues/memorials I could use, but the idea is that they would be un-rushable. This is the only way I could think of getting those in the game without actually editing SDK. Ideally they'd have their own civilopedia section, I could have both Global Achievements and National Achievements (for things like Womans Suffrage, Theory of Evolution, Cure for Cancer, Magellan's Expedition, Organized Labor, etc.), what I envision for most of them is that they would have setbacks and benefits. Like organized labor would have some type of monetary loss for production or something like that, as one possible example. So they'd be entirely optional to build based on what you need to happen.

From what you're saying these sound more or less like wonders with positive and negative bonuses?
 
Not entirely. I want them to be in a different category (in the civilopedia), not show up in the wonders screen, and I don't want them to be rushable (i.e. by whipping, engineers, money, whatever, I'd prefer if you couldn't even chop them).

EDIT: March is a good idea.
 
But essentially besides those differences they'll just be wonders with postive and negative bonuses, right?
 
But essentially besides those differences they'll just be wonders with postive and negative bonuses, right?

Yeah, in that you can only build one per civ and in some cases just one world-wide yes. Basically they would all look like monuments (so they will look very similar). I basically want to combine the "concept" of a project with the effects of a wonder. They wouldn't all have negative bonuses BTW, some will, but only to offset the positives so it is like a trade off.

I'm basically trying to sneak in the projects discussed previously in an easy way.
 
I must apologize as well for not giving you much feed back, between making units and college, I really don't have as much time for civ playing these days...

But I want to comment on one thing, many people seem to love the idea of nerfing the poor Quechua by reducing the archery bonus down to 50% or so.
I must beg you, please don't.
Consider this, the person who plays the Inca will get a UU that does not have a advantage against anything in a straight up fight. Think about it.
Archers have 3 str and first strike bonuses. If you decrease the Inca's archery bonus to only 50% it won't be able to beat archers in a straight up fight as it will make their strength only equal and the archer will have the edge because it has it's first strikes. Basically, the Quechua will be a warrior with a tiny bonus. Playing with the UU will not give the player any new strategies or even real benefit.
Personally, I would leave the Quechua as is and just nerf it passively by increasing the hammer cost to be equal to the archers. This way, while a player may still use it to rush a enemy that has a close starter city, it will come at a much larger cost in production. Either that or just give it a 25- city attack and then it will become more of a barbarian archer basher while still giving it small rush capabilities when massed but at least it will be good against something.
Just throwing my opinion in the ring for what it's worth.
 
Honestly, I never considered nerfing the Quechua. I understand why people want me to, but you are exactly in my same frame of mind. There is no purpose to doing it, to me it is simply there as an early advantage, but those rarely result in victory (at least not alone). The Quechua will stay, and as I have said before I intend on keeping this mod as close to stock BtS as I can, so in all liklihood no UUs will be changed other than the ones already mentioned (Camel Archer will now be Ansar Warrior, Praetorians can build roads, the Franks will get a new UU since they are no longer HRE, and the Immortal will no longer be mounted).

Honestly I don't understand why the Quechua replaces the warrior to begin with.

EDIT: About the archer bonus the Quech'es have - I think the line of thinking for Firaxis was that these units have shields (if you notice the stock warriors, and even axemen don't), which was probably considered when giving them the bonus against archers, if you consider the size and shape of the shields (and think about how they would be used in warfare) you'd probably set them with the end flat on the ground and crouch behind them. Thus blocking arrows. Think of them as warriors with the beginings of using equipment, rather than brawn, to fight.
 
Alright, I will get the latest UU and UB suggestion in my table soon, and then post it together, so Capo can easily find and put them in the next playtest.
Any more suggestions regarding UUs and UBs?

My opinion on Quecha: Bakuel and Capo have a good point there, they should be superior against archers in open combat, especially when defending against them (shields).
But their main advantage is/was the superior city capturing, which is a mistake by Firaxis IMO.
Just read about quechuas in any civ multiplayer forum.
So I would either do Bakuel's suggestion, while keeping the +100% against archers add -25% city attack, or what maybe even better is to give them 100% defence and 50% attack against archers.
This would represent their shield using well, having huge bonus when defending vs archers and medium bonus when attacking them is realistic enough for me.

Also, we should not forget about traits. I really think it's time to decide something on that, which 2-3 will be added?
Something with seafaring/exploring and something with spying sounds good to me as a start.

Btw, what about having a Diplomacy II subforum? No news on that?
All these things would be much easier to keep track of...


EDIT: Back to Quecha, don't forget they also get a free Combat I promotion. So the way I suggested they would still beat Archers both in defence and attack in open combat
 
Again, I understand the concerns about the Quechua, but how many games have you played where it has been a major factor? At the WORST a Quechua is able to take out one civ, if you have a map with a lot of civs or a pangea maybe two at the most. I have said before that I am not entirely interested in making a lot of changs to the UUs. If I can get a good REASON (not just explaning how strong/unbalanced it is, it is supposed to be unbalanced, that's what makes it a UU) to nerf the Quechua I will consider it, but right now I have like 0% interest in changing it.

Alright, I will get the latest UU and UB suggestion in my table soon, and then post it together, so Capo can easily find and put them in the next playtest.
Any more suggestions regarding UUs and UBs?

That would be awesome. I don't have a lot of time right now, but when I get home later tonight we can try to iron that out, it would be nice to finally get them all updated. Perhaps everyone casn post some ideas, I believe the units in question are:
  • Persian Immortal (replaces axeman)
  • Arab Ansar Warrior (replaces Knight)
  • Israelite Maccabee (replaces axeman)
  • Polynesian Koa (replaces Swordsman)
  • Vietnamese Viet Cong (replaces Infantry)
  • Frankish Carolignian Paladin (replaces Knight)
  • Iroquois Mohawk Warrior (replaces Rifleman)
  • Iroquois Longhouse (replaces Courthouse)
  • Polynesian Marae (replaces colosseum)
  • Israelite Mossad HQ (replaces Intelligence Bureau)
  • Any UU or UB from the module pack, but that is a secondary concern at this point.

I intentionally left out the current stats, if you know them great, but I think a fresh approach would be best in this situation.

Also, we should not forget about traits. I really think it's time to decide something on that, which 2-3 will be added?
Something with seafaring/exploring and something with spying sounds good to me as a start.

I don't think anything was decided, but I'd much rather leave that discussion for another time. I'd rather get this playtest out before we start on that. Not to mention I am updating the LHs in the playtest after this, so it would be more appropriate at that point I think.

Btw, what about having a Diplomacy II subforum? No news on that?
All these things would be much easier to keep track of...

I just got a response about it last night, and he just asked me some questions about the mod and for some links, so hopefully they say yes. :goodjob:
 
If you want, I can head-up the LH project for the mod, since I have most of the materials anyway, as far as tables personalities. Granted, I dont have the personalities that CK did, just the ones I did/use.

If/when you get the subforum, it will make alot of these sub-projects easier for everyone to keep track off.
The only problem I can forsee, is the causual poster might not go to the subforum.
 
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