Colonialist Legacies: Histories of the New World | Colonial + Pre-Colonial civs

Why not allow the African Nationalist to make a random city unoccupied in exchange for a few turns of resistance across the Empire? Then replace the Bantustan Parliament (After all I thought you wanted to avoid putting the player in control of apartheid south Africa.) with something like an amaFengu Gunman?
 
That's certainly an idea. I do like having a Courthouse replacement though that will actually be necessary to build. I'm not 100% keen nor sold on the African Politician, and perhaps would like a military UU. What I like about the Bantusan Parliament is the fact that it's not tied to a specific era, which begs the question - do we want a Post-Colonial UU?

And just in case we forgot about South Africa's colours :):

 
I agree with needing a military UU, and the courthouse idea is cool I just don't know how good an idea it is to have Bantustan parliaments, which were an apartheid thing now considered pretty insensitive, in a civ led by Nelson Mandela. Are there any buildings particularly famous for housing congregations of African Nationalists? Or perhaps just an ANC? It could replace the courthouse and have a slot for a great work of writing, I'm thinking...

African National Congress: Replaces the courthouse and provides an instant culture bonus when built. Has a slot for 1 Great Work of writing, which, when filled, lifts the city from occupation and provides bonus tourism.

You could go one further and add something to the UA about South African great writers creating unique African writings, which provide bonus yields. I think the whole thing then is a nice metaphor for South Africa, as it is a divided nation but capable of being united peacefully through culture. As far as a military UU goes, a pre-colonial unit stands out as allowing South Africa to represent its whole history, but I'm not sure how smart it is to blob South Africa as one civ, native and modern, when we already have 2 native South African civs (Zulu and Boers), and the potential for more, like the Xhosa.

If you wanted to save the precolonial unit for a future civ like the Xhosa, what about the Umkhonto we Sizwe? It was founded by Mandela after all.

I don't suppose CL would be up for a separate Xhosa civ in that case then, or perhaps even Cape Colony?

Adding the Xhosa and the Cape Colony would give us 5 South African civs, including Vanilla, more than we have in the entirety of the rest of Africa so far.
 
Adding the Xhosa and the Cape Colony would give us 5 South African civs, including Vanilla, more than we have in the entirety of the rest of Africa so far.

Research is far easier for South African civs. There's more anyway that have been modded - Kongo, Kilwa, Berbers and a bunch of others. Africa's still under represented, but South Africa is a fantastic passage to get to the others. The Zulus are still the only pre-colonial civ in South Africa, and I see the Xhosa being a good second.
 
Research is far easier for South African civs. There's more anyway that have been modded - Kongo, Kilwa, Berbers and a bunch of others. Africa's still under represented, but South Africa is a fantastic passage to get to the others. The Zulus are still the only pre-colonial civ in South Africa, and I see the Xhosa being a good second.

I know there are some really good other African civs, I just mean for a mod pack which prides itself on representing the world outside of Europe and native civilisations, it might make sense to have at least one other African civ before having 4 South African civs. Either way I do agree that its sensible to leave out Xhosa uniques for a future South African civs, I just personally would like to see the rest of Africa get a few civs before returning to South Africa.
 
All in all, we're only aiming for South Africa here. Our current roster is innumerably long, and we want to be attainable here. Civs can always be ammended in the future if someone wants to create a split.

Don't worry about the specific names for now - It's more about getting cohesive functions out for now. Also, just in case we forgot about the music -they're things of beauty:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/dk90utt5ha7ranf/South+Africa+Peace.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/8hjrycbfo71p76b/South+Africa+War.mp3
 
Well then I still think the ANC with a slot for one of SAs unique African nationalist works of writing (Could be quotes or speeches I suppose.) which makes the city unoccupied again works as a cohesive function for a unique courthouse, plus its a lot less controversial than a Bantustan Parliament, which represents segregation of the black Africans. It would be like having a West Bank Barrier UB for Israel... An amaFengu gunner also makes sense for a unique to represent the nations historical roots, no idea what it would do though.
 
Adding the Xhosa and the Cape Colony would give us 5 South African civs, including Vanilla, more than we have in the entirety of the rest of Africa so far.

CL already has a reputation (deserved, that is mostly my fault) for over-representing specific nations...

Canada
Inuit
Dene
Blackfoot
Cree
Wabanaki
Anishinaabe
Salish
Beothuk

... are all in the borders of Canada.

Mind you, Canada is very large compared to, say, South Africa.
 
CL already has a reputation (deserved, that is mostly my fault) for over-representing specific nations...

Canada
Inuit
Dene
Blackfoot
Cree
Wabanaki
Anishinaabe
Salish
Beothuk

... are all in the borders of Canada.

Mind you, Canada is very large compared to, say, South Africa.

Yeah I realised that right after I posted :lol:

I assume though it can mostly be rationalised by the fact that there are only 2 countries in America North of the Rio Grande so its hard not to over-represent those countries when focusing on North American civs, particularly when South America is already done fantastically well by the guys over at Patria Grande.

Whereas in the case of SA, Africa is huge and covered in dozens of potential civs, so confining yourself to just the cape seems counter-intuitive to me. Either way its an issue for a looong way off and I suppose actually getting the first one out of the gate is more of a priority right now eh.
 
Here's my go at a South Africa concept, based off TPang's UA. Less dramatic than Reedstilt's, though I hope it has some value in it.

UA: Rainbow Nation
After an Ideology is adopted, gain one Delegate to the World Congress from each Domestic Trade Route. Domestic Trade Routes are unlocked from the start of the game.
UU: Fengu Gunman
Replaces Cavalry, though acts as a Foot unit. While it is in City-State borders, it slowly gains :c5influence: Influence with them. +5% :c5strength: Combat Strength in Friendly Territory from each Domestic Trade Route.
UB: Kraal
Replaces Granary. On top of the normal benefits, gain +1 :c5culture: Culture from each pasture worked by the city. Domestic Trade Routes to cities with a Kraal provide +1 :c5food: Food or :c5production: Production on Pastures, depending on the type. +2 :c5culture: Culture and :c5production: Production on top of the bonus Food normally.
 
From my basically American perspective, I think the first idea is more SA. I'm not quite sure what the 2 pop cities are representing though. And occupied because..SA has high crime? Is this what our depiction of South Africa should be centered on? I do like uke the idea as a mechanic though, interesting. Bantustan Parliament should probably get a new name. And the African Nationalist GP I think should be made generic, just Nationalist or something.
 
I do think we need a military UU though.

So the UU suggestions you didn't get to see because I kept changing things around while trying to balance out different ideas were these:

Oliphant, replaces the Tank, rough terrain bonus and cheaper to upgrade to Modern Armor.

Umkhonto we Sizwe, the militant wing of the African National Congress. Was a Great Writer that didn't produce Great Works, like the African Nationalist. It got some combat abilities instead, along with the ability to cause Resistance in cities with Bantustans.

If you want to swap out the Great Writer replacement but keep the Bantustan Parliament, I'd suggest making it "Does not remove extra Unhappiness, but provides +1 Local Happiness for every X Social Policies / Tenets adopted." That way Great Writers and their Political Treatises can still help out.

"extra Unhappiness is not removed"

Uhh, while I definitely see this Civ being a peacful one I think this is a huge penalty.
Conquering 2 Cities can hurt you happiness wise for the whole game with this.

That's what the African Nationalists are for. The amount of Happiness that a Bantustan Parliament can produce is limited only by the number of African Nationalists you produce.

I'm not quite sure what the 2 pop cities are representing though. And occupied because..SA has high crime? Is this what our depiction of South Africa should be centered on?

Occupied because of Apartheid, which you need to use your politicians to overcome. Extra population to both give you some sort of bonus for founding only occupied Cities and to represent expansion of the Cape Colony at the expense of the Free State, Zulu, Xhosa, Khoikhoi, etc.

Speaking of the Xhosa, I've been toying around with some ideas for them as a separate Civ. Also, the Khoisan, led by Hinsati. If CL wants to do those though, they'll be well down the line.
 
Occupied because of Apartheid, which you need to use your politicians to overcome. Extra population to both give you some sort of bonus for founding only occupied Cities and to represent expansion of the Cape Colony at the expense of the Free State, Zulu, Xhosa, Khoikhoi, etc.

Speaking of the Xhosa, I've been toying around with some ideas for them as a separate Civ. Also, the Khoisan, led by Hinsati. If CL wants to do those though, they'll be well down the line.

Sounds good to me. I like your UU ideas too.
 
From my basically American perspective, I think the first idea is more SA. I'm not quite sure what the 2 pop cities are representing though. And occupied because..SA has high crime? Is this what our depiction of South Africa should be centered on? I do like uke the idea as a mechanic though, interesting. Bantustan Parliament should probably get a new name. And the African Nationalist GP I think should be made generic, just Nationalist or something.

I assumed the 'Occupied' represented the apartheid days when the majority were oppressed by a minority. The bantustan parliaments were a weird way to fix that imo because they represent apartheid more than anything, but still, I like that representation of South Africa, a desire to liberate your own people with the power of your culture, like this:

UA: Rainbow Nation

Settlers found :c5occupied: occupied cities, which receive a +25% :c5food: growth bonus before adopting an ideology. +1 :c5culture: culture per citizen in non-occupied cities.
UB: African National Congress.
Replaces Courthouse, +1 :c5happy: happiness. Has a slot for a GWoW which, when filled, removes the :c5occupied: occupied status from the city, and causes 2 turns of resistance :c5razing:. Provides a :tourism: tourism bonus when the empire is happy. :c5happy:
UU: Fengu Gunner
Replaces rifleman, slightly higher combat strength than the rifleman it replaces. Receive a small amount of :c5culture: culture when gifting the Fengu Gunner to another civ or city state.

Obviously heavily built around Reedstilts idea here, which I think not only represents South Africa well, but more importantly, provides new and interestingly gameplay to fundamentally change the one plays the civ compared to other civs, which I think is the most important thing. The UA is almost the same but I feel like the growth bonus provides a more meaningful player choice. How late should one leave the city occupied to keep the growth bonus going? As the longer the growth bonus is active, the more citizens you'll have, making the second half of the UA more beneficial. The ideal play would be to leave the majority of your cities occupied until the late game, when you'd have to burst in to the cultural and tourism game for a cultural victory, which mirrors the way South Africa took so long to come out of apartheid.

The UB is the mechanism for this player choice, and provides the useful bonus of having a slot for a GWoW, but the extra tourism when the empire is happy represents how the more of your cities have come out of apartheid and stop dragging down the empires happiness, the more your culture will grow and flourish. With the addition of the ANC the civ is now geared largely towards a careful balancing act of keeping your cities happy enough to be useful, but not just spamming ANCs and losing out on the bonus growth too early.

The Fengu Gunner provides a bit of culture when gifted because the fact that the Fengu gunners were used as allies by many people, most notably the cape colony, features heavily in their own culture, initially being a wandering people with no true home who would offer their expert combat prowess to other powers. It's not very complicated but the rest of the civ synergises well and has quite a few bonuses, so I like the simple UU.
 
The Brainstorming is strong, Scott's idea seems pretty finalized only needs tweaking here and there.
 
I assumed the 'Occupied' represented the apartheid days when the majority were oppressed by a minority. The bantustan parliaments were a weird way to fix that imo because they represent apartheid more than anything

Admittedly, my version is also tied in with the Events and Decisions system. In particular, there's a Truth and Reconciliation Decision I had in mind that can be activated once you adopt an Ideology. It puts a Truth and Reconciliation Commission in every city, which removes Occupied and generates +2 Golden Age Points, among a few other things.

Admittedly, we shouldn't rely on everyone to play with Events and Decisions active (especially when it's not been officially released yet), so perhaps Bantustan Parliaments simply become Truth and Reconciliation Commissions once an Ideology is adopted.

but still, I like that representation of South Africa, a desire to liberate your own people with the power of your culture, like this:

UA: Rainbow Nation

Settlers found :c5occupied: occupied cities, which receive a +25% :c5food: growth bonus before adopting an ideology. +1 :c5culture: culture per citizen in non-occupied cities.
UB: African National Congress.
Replaces Courthouse, +1 :c5happy: happiness. Has a slot for a GWoW which, when filled, removes the :c5occupied: occupied status from the city, and causes 2 turns of resistance :c5razing:. Provides a :tourism: tourism bonus when the empire is happy. :c5happy:
UU: Fengu Gunner
Replaces rifleman, slightly higher combat strength than the rifleman it replaces. Receive a small amount of :c5culture: culture when gifting the Fengu Gunner to another civ or city state.

I like this, in general. It's missing a way to generate Great Writers more easily though. Might want to add +1 Great Writer Points in Occupied Cities as well.
 
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