Comparison of Map Scrips - What's your favorite ?

[cammcken]

I'm trying Toffer's World script on 50% resources.

First off, check out this cool spawn: Two mammoth bonuses in their own mini peninsula, between barbarian cities. When I got my Master tracker, I assembled a team with armed escorts for a proper mammoth hunting expedition. Very successful: four mammoths downed, of which two were subdued.

Spoiler Mammoth Hunt :

But I wanted to ask about tiles labeled "fresh water" that I couldn't explain. In the screenshots below, I've marked the boundaries of an entire region of inexplicable fresh water tiles. Everything inside the X's, inclusive, are fresh water tiles. O's mark non-fresh water tiles, for clarification. Unmarked tiles outside the boundaries are either non-freshwater or freshwater with a clear source.

What could be causing this?

Spoiler Fresh Water Tiles :

 

[Toffer90]

What could be causing this?

No idea, it's not caused by the mapscript though. I'll look into it.

 

[cammcken]

Want a save file?

 

[Toffer90]

The freshwater strangeness is now fixed and will be available on the next SVN revision.

Features like swamps, peat bogs, etc. didn't only add freshwater to their own plot, they also added it to all adjacent plots as well, I changed it to only affect the plot the feature belongs to.
Only rivers and lakes should imo add freshwater to adjacent plots.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The freshwater strangeness is now fixed and will be available on the next SVN revision.

Features like swamps, peat bogs, etc. didn't only add freshwater to their own plot, they also added it to all adjacent plots as well, I changed it to only affect the plot the feature belongs to.
Only rivers and lakes should imo add freshwater to adjacent plots.

Completely agree. Thanks for this! I would add that this only self plot freshwater access should probably include oases as well.

 

[MattCA]

if (getFeatureType() != NO_FEATURE && GC.getFeatureInfo(getFeatureType()).isAddsFreshWater())
{
return true;
}


looks like that can be done using the xml after toffer's change.

 

[Toffer90]

Completely agree. Thanks for this! I would add that this only self plot freshwater access should probably include oases as well.

Yeah, I didn't list them all, any feature with <bAddsFreshWater>1</bAddsFreshWater> will only add freshwater to the plot the feature is on. Oasis has always had that tag set true.

 

[ecawilson]

I would add that this only self plot freshwater access should probably include oases as well.

Disagree strongly. Cities aren't built on Oasis, but next to them. Cities can't be built on desert, unless they have freshwater. Doing this kills the desert city locations.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Disagree strongly. Cities aren't built on Oasis, but next to them. Cities can't be built on desert, unless they have freshwater. Doing this kills the desert city locations.

It should. Most of the desert is less than useless land and consider how many hundreds of square miles a plot itself actually is. This is not to say that you wouldn't be able to 'irrigate' outward from that plot, just that it takes some later tech to do it. Desert cities are too forgiving right now anyhow. They SHOULD be tough places to feed and grow and make truly beneficial.

 

[ecawilson]

I am not the expert on desert or oases, you might have done a lot more research than I. But what about the Uyghur people, towns like Awjila or Ghadames or Kufra, Tamanrasset, Turpan or really much of the silk road? It appears to me that continuous settlements in deserts by oases have played a significant role in history and culture and military conflicts for a long time.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sure but those would be ON the Oasis tile, wouldn't they?

 

[ecawilson]

Sure but those would be ON the Oasis tile, wouldn't they?

My bad! I was coming from vanilla, where settle ON the oasis was impossible because of restrictions to the game engine. In that case, this is simply a difference of opinion with the original Firaxis designers of the mechanic, and something that can be overcome easily later on with further balancing, if necessary (an oasis specific building, maybe, if needed). Sorry

 

[Thunderbrd]

My bad! I was coming from vanilla, where settle ON the oasis was impossible because of restrictions to the game engine. In that case, this is simply a difference of opinion with the original Firaxis designers of the mechanic, and something that can be overcome easily later on with further balancing, if necessary (an oasis specific building, maybe, if needed). Sorry

I believe we have relaxed that restriction at this point and it would make sense because most desert cities form around the oasis, not miles off to the side of one.

 

[Toffer90]

Disagree strongly. Cities aren't built on Oasis, but next to them. Cities can't be built on desert, unless they have freshwater. Doing this kills the desert city locations.

You can settle the city on the oasis without losing the oasis on the plot, and some deserts have a river running through them or around their edges making it possible to settle the city in the desert. It doesn't make sense not to center the city around the oasis, not doing so would make it real cumbersome to get the water needed by the citizens every day when they live far away from the oasis, and yes, one tile can be considered far when its the distance between where people live and the only drops of water in proximity to that.

Edit: I see you and TB already went over these point...

 

[Thunderbrd]

You can settle the city on the oasis without losing the oasis on the plot, and some deserts have a river running through them or around their edges making it possible to settle the city in the desert. It doesn't make sense not to center the city around the oasis, not doing so would make it real cumbersome to get the water needed by the citizens every day when they live far away from the oasis, and yes, one tile can be considered far when its the distance between where people live and the only drops of water in proximity to that.

Edit: I see you and TB already went over these point...

Cool that you put it in other words though.

 

[cammcken]

I was against it (removing oasis's freshwater adjacency) initially, but I think it may have been just because I'm so used to the effect from vanilla Civ4. I can't think of any reason why they should be different from the other features. (Beside that they're rare.)

It won't make too much difference, will it? Late ancient era techs grant irrigation to farms and the public well building. I also noticed C2C bumped the freshwater bonus down to 1, from 2.

Keep in mind, though, there are starting locations in deserts that could be harmed.

Edit: Biggest effect would be placement of desert camp improvements. There are some funny rules I can't remember off the top of my head... Some tiles can have farms or desert camps, some tiles can have only desert camps, and desert tiles with no freshwater at all can't have either.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Edit: Biggest effect would be placement of desert camp improvements. There are some funny rules I can't remember off the top of my head... Some tiles can have farms or desert camps, some tiles can have only desert camps, and desert tiles with no freshwater at all can't have either.

They apparently act like farms in what they require, but don't continue the irrigation.

Yes, it will cut down on how many are possible, but that's a good thing - desert cities have been far too strong I think - hardly impeded by being in the desert compared to your standard Vanilla desert cities.

 

[cammcken]

They apparently act like farms in what they require, but don't continue the irrigation.

Yes, it will cut down on how many are possible, but that's a good thing - desert cities have been far too strong I think - hardly impeded by being in the desert compared to your standard Vanilla desert cities.

1. So would one be able to build a farm on the oasis tile itself, then place 8 desert camps? Or only one desert camp in the oasis?

2. I don't know much about that, since I've never progressed too far.... but could that be caused by all the yields flowing in from buildings? That could make any poorly located city stronger than its vanilla counterpart. Desert camps only offer +2 and +2~4 (depending on tech) on a zero-yield tile. Compare that to a cottage on grassland with 2 , 1 and 2~4 (depending on tech), which can upgrade further. Don't listen to me though, ask someone who's actually made it to the medieval era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So would one be able to build a farm on the oasis tile itself, then place 8 desert camps? Or only one desert camp in the oasis?

Theoretically, if I understand the settings as it is, sure. Though I'm not SURE that a farm with irrigation actually gives fresh water to surrounding tiles so much as it allows further irrigation-requiring improvements to those tiles so I could be wrong on how that's working exactly. The camps may not be able to be placed just because a farm is extending irrigation.

I don't know much about that, since I've never progressed too far.... but could that be caused by all the yields flowing in from buildings? That could make any poorly located city stronger than its vanilla counterpart. Desert camps only offer +2 and +2~4 (depending on tech) on a zero-yield tile. Compare that to a cottage on grassland with 2 , 1 and 2~4 (depending on tech), which can upgrade further. Don't listen to me though, ask someone who's actually made it to the medieval era.

The point is if fewer desert tiles are likely to qualify for even a desert camp, deserts will become a little more difficult, as they should be.

 

[Joij21]

I see that in the new svn there are now tags that allow seal and walrus to only spawn next to the coast. Would it be possible to do the same for coconuts since sometimes I see them spawn inland? Also would it be possible to have coconuts only spawn in the tropics?