[RD] Do 'woke' films go broke? (from LGBTQ news)

[Zardnaar]

Quoted without comment.

Generally its a you'll know it when you see it. Not Anerican remember.

We had lgbtq stuff on our TVs here back in 80s and 90s.

Eg Sticky Moments late 80's/early 90s.

Priscilla Queen of the Desert was a relative hit here. 1994. Two cross dressers (gay) 1 trans.

Once Were Warriors 1993 iirc. Watched it in the theatre. Hard hitting film makes you think. Rena Owen was in The Orville recently, Temperance Mortoson is Bobva Fett and was in Aquaman.

Never really thought these were great because representation. They were good because they were good.

Modern Hollywood "look how progressive we are yadda yadda yadda.

Justcomes across as hamfisted, inorganic and preachy. We did this 25-30 years ago was more organic. Biggest soap here in 94/95 had homosexual storyline and characters no big deal.

Watch the main actor in She Hulk and compare her work in Orphan Black. Ones purile brain dead garbage the other is great awesome actor (can't recall her blame atm).

Here's an NZ "woke" production I've posted ot before dontvthink anyone watched it.

 

[Gorbles]

Biggest soap here in 94/95 had homosexual storyline and characters no big deal.

Because it hadn't been made into a culture war thing yet. The fact these storylines often (but not always) used to exist with no (significant) controversy is often the point.

Watch the main actor in She Hulk and compare here work in Orphan Black. Ones purile brain dead garbage the other is great awesome actor (can't recall her blame atm).

That's not "woke", that's you not liking one show, and liking another. There doesn't have to be a deeper reason than that.

Though it is funny to watch you trot out every single (and I mean every single) show or film the alt-right has complained (often baselessly) about for the past half a decade or so. I wonder how "organically" you came by those opinions.

"rey is a mary sue" is one of the most hamfisted, inorganic and preachy comments I've come across about Star Wars in the past 30 years

 

[Zardnaar]

Because it hadn't been made into a culture war thing yet. The fact these storylines often (but not always) used to exist with no (significant) controversy is often the point.

That's not "woke", that's you not liking one show, and liking another. There doesn't have to be a deeper reason than that.

Though it is funny to watch you trot out every single (and I mean every single) show or film the alt-right has complained (often baselessly) about for the past half a decade or so. I wonder how "organically" you came by those opinions.

"rey is a mary sue" is one of the most hamfisted, inorganic and preachy comments I've come across about Star Wars in the past 30 years

I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue personally. It's a common phrase lobbed her way. She is a boring xardboard cutout character though. Good actor but yeah they screwed her over and just copied Luke's story (badly). Finn and the other fella got it even worse. Bad writing, poorly planned/executed.

Vaptain Marvel another culture war movie wasn't to bad as far as MCU movies go better than Iron 2/3, and one of those Thor movies.

Problem is if you criticize any of the big culture war movies near the time of release you get accused of all sorts of isms regardless of the quality of the movies.

 

[Gorbles]

Problem is if you criticize any of the big culture war movies near the time of release you get accused of all sorts of isms regardless of the quality of the movies.

No, you don't.

If you copy verbatim complaints from alt-right culture warriors without going into any further depth, then yes, you will be associated with that demographic. Just like if I said "I like pie", people would assume that I like pie! This is not an unfair association, it's on you to provide better criticism.

 

[Zardnaar]

No, you don't.

If you copy verbatim complaints from alt-right culture warriors without going into any further depth, then yes, you will be associated with that demographic. Just like if I said "I like pie", people would assume that I like pie! This is not an unfair association, it's on you to provide better criticism.

You do on other forums eg Star Wars ones a few years back.

Mostly uone away as very few seem to love the sequel trilogy now. I don't really care if you like it different tastes etc don't insult me for not liking it.

 

[Arakhor]

You can dislike something all you like, but using 'woke' to dismiss media you don't like is akin to teenagers describing things they dislike as 'gay', which is reductive at best.

 

[Moriarte]

Films with badly integrated popular agenda often get ridiculed. They deserve it. The method of brainwashing into thinking this or that through art medium is a tactic that cheapens both the film and the agenda. It’s not a new tactic. We had product placement before that. A “owned by Zuckerberg” stamp on Mona Lisa would certainly bring more views, due to the nature of modern attention aggregation mechanisms, but it also cheapens and muddies the message left to us by a master.

Some movies manage to integrate trash without affecting the main point, so to speak. Forrest Gump, a worldwide classic had great story, top notch acting, directing, sound, et., AND it had a mountain of product placement - Nike, Apple, Dr Pepper - absolutely irrelevant to the film, and yet woven in with flare. In other words, it makes sense for Forrest “the American” to run around in Nike’s and sip on Dr Pepper. From time to time. It works ok, if it isn’t overly pushy.

There is an opposite example of badly placed corporate agenda. “I Robot” with Will Smith. They kept coming back to those damn sneakers ar least 4 times in a movie. With prolonged close up shots - it’s ridiculous. Have you guys forgotten you’re filming a movie and not an ad for some crappy shoe maker? People can see through this stuff. Now it’s gotten more serious with today’s cultural artefacts finding their way into film. People push back with criticism, when the final art form is muddied to much by some bullfeathers, which is going to get irrelevant in 5 years.

I think some of this agenda is ok. The director should know how to strike good balance with it.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Films with badly integrated popular agenda often get ridiculed.

Expand on what you mean, give examples

 

[Moriarte]

Expand on what you mean, give examples

I gave you my example of corporate agenda. Will Smith and sneakers. Apply same principle to culture wars and come up with examples yourself. The point is not the inclusion of whatever agenda, the point is the absence of taste by going over the top. Too much salt spoils the dish.

 

[Gorbles]

I gave you my example of corporate agenda. Will Smith and sneakers. Apply same principle to culture wars and come up with examples yourself. The point is not the inclusion of whatever agenda, the point is the absence of taste by going over the top. Too much salt spoils the dish.

I'm not sure "Will Smith and sneakers" maps neatly to the culture war outrage target of "LGBTQ people existing".

 

[r16]

yes , it really hurts one side of the cultural war in America when an ACTUAL Star Wars fan talks . Maybe not that powerful then ?

 

[Moriarte]

I'm not sure "Will Smith and sneakers" maps neatly to the culture war outrage target of "LGBTQ people existing".

It maps neatly into excessive corporate ad agenda, which was my point. If you want to make a separate point with examples, go right ahead.

It’s a “woke film go brrr” thread, a free-for-all

 

[Gorbles]

yes , it really hurts one side of the cultural war in America when an ACTUAL Star Wars fan talks . Maybe not that powerful then ?

Does it? The "culture war" is a massively astroturfed conservative effort at being mad at women and minorities, and people in this effort and opposing this effort can both be Star Wars fans. Being an "actual" fan doesn't make you a good or bad anything. You're already a good or bad anything. I'm already a good or bad anything. We both know Star Wars. We're both "actual" fans.

It maps neatly into excessive corporate ad agenda, which was my point. If you want to make a separate point with examples, go right ahead.

It’s a “woke film go brrr” thread, a free-for-all

Not sure the factual existence of minorities equates to an "excessive" amount of anything. Remember, the opposing "side" in the culture war is "these people shouldn't exist, period".

 

[r16]

ı don't know many other films . But ı know Star Wars . ı also know the possibility of people knowing people who work for Disney . Moderator Action: SNIP...PDMA..lymond
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

there is a cultural war and stuff . Pretty sure that you people can do it all alone . Pretty sure you are confident that you are doing perfectly alright . But , like in the unlikely case you need something while facing the cavemen , do not impose that some Ottoman Sultan was Black , Brown or from the Indian Subcontinent , because there are like dozens of period paintings . And ı say this as a person who is aware of trends of birthrates and whatever , like across the world and how this forces especially the European countries to embrace People who are not born White and whatever . Do not make up fake histories for people of Colour because theirs are bright already . Oh wait , because of White Racism there is a problem in believing that ? Watch for this one , critizing Firaxis for some Civ VI release ... Yes , there will really be a time to talk about this: Disney's Star Wars insults everyone conceivable , in return for hefty bonuses from the Crown Prince of UAE , Mega Big Zit ... For starters .

edit: Re-arranged paragraph for readibility

 

[Gorbles]

But ı know Star Wars

You and me both, buddy. I'm not particularly interested in the (complete lack of nuance) you seem to be trying to accuse Disney of r.e. skin colour in a made-up fantasy universe (a long time ago, in a galaxy far away, etc).

 

[r16]

oh , if it is a made up fantasy world , what's the attention ? Oh , wait , bad people accuse good people of doing something !

 

[Gorbles]

oh , if it is a made up fantasy world , what's the attention ? Oh , wait , bad people accuse good people of doing something !

People care about made-up fantasy worlds. No surprises there. But the creators can still do what they want. It's not anything to do with "white racism" or whatever.

The argument is what it always was. It's about liking the output; the content. Only now, instead of just saying "it's not for me", people have to invent reasons to "objectively" justify their dislike in a way that makes them feel smart. It's not criticism; it's not analytical. It's "Disney made the Mandalorian woke". It's purely about making one's self feel better about not being into a show. It's entirely unnecessary.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Propaganda is propaganda is propaganda. It is an effective tool to control the masses. It is a sinister tool by design that intentionally is meant to pit one group against another. Those behind the 'ganda could care less what you believe as long as we are all canceling each other out.

History is full of examples of people wanting to believe what they tell us is righteous and therefor it is justified to engage in a full campaign of exterminatus against heretics. Evil advances masquerading as righteousness to achieve it's evil results.

But love. Love conquers all. It is when we truly love one another that we all work together to make the world a better place.

 

[Gori the Grey]

OMG, Disney should totally do a film titled "Woke" (since adjectives like "Frozen" and "Tangled," have been viable titles).

It should be a reboot of Sleeping Beauty, where the princess wakes up without the kiss of prince and then just goes about some cool princessing things of her own choosing, like the heroines in Frozen. At some point the Prince character gets a cameo. Beauty just walks by him. He's going about his business; she's going about hers. She opens a door for him, maybe, because his hands are full. He's not an evil, patriarchal slimeball; he's just a dude living his own life; even he's been freed up from the fairy-tale stereotypes.

If done right, it could completely take the wind out of the anti-"woke" sails.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I think @Sommerswerd hit the nail on the head, right at the beginning of this conversation:

But[...] IT RHYMES!

I think that's it. I think that's really all there is to it. "Go woke, go broke" is pithy, amusing, and sounds clever, like the sort of dorm-room-poster wisdom that Mystery Men was making fun of 25 years ago. I don't think it has enough intellectual heft to be on a bumper-sticker.

Mr. Furious: Okay. Am I the only one who finds these sayings just a bit formulaic? "If you wanna put something down, you gotta pick it up". "If you wanna go left, you gotta go right". It's...

The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage —

Mr. Furious: '...your rage will become your master'? That's what you were gonna say, right?

The Sphinx: Not necessarily.

I don't think there is a definition of "woke", and probably by design. I think the vagueness is part of why it's so useful to such great modern thinkers as Ron DeSantis.

I've tried engaging the sorts of people who might use "woke" as a pejorative (or its predecessor, "politically correct") in conversations over the years, trying to understand their position on one thing or another, and most of the time I couldn't, because they can't explain their position. I'm sure this goes back to when humans first developed language, but I'm thinking back to the early 2000s, when the people opposed to same-sex marriage couldn't articulate a single intelligent point, even if you bought them a beer and asked them calmly (and I tried, a few times). Everything that came out of their mouths on the subject was just steaming gibberish. I see no reason to think anything's changed 20 years later, other than the group(s) of people they're mindlessly attacking. Actually, one group they're attacking now is the same group they've been attacking in this country for 200 years - immigrants - and with pretty much the same garbage talking points. History, like some of these dimwitted slogans, rhymes.