[RD] Do 'woke' films go broke? (from LGBTQ news)

[Angst]

i'm subscribed to this for some reason, even if i didn't post anything or click anything. huh. weird.

but maybe, some input.

besides the fact that a lot of the bad films that are "woke" i guess are often hugely succesful (esp the big profile "bad" "woke" i guess), i want to say two things.

first, half-hearted pandering in bad movies is not something "woke" people usually like. it's very clear when it's cynical. like, from what i can gather, eg the emoji movie was so tone deaf it annoyed both the left and the right. (who remembers that movie lol). when segments of the left wants good representation, then part of that, in a movie, is to have a good movie. we cringe at forced stuff too, y'know. the thread has presented a number of examples that demonstrate that it can be done competently without being forced.

second, on "woke", let me dig up my old thread

"Wokeist" - When people talk about progressivism without acquaintance

Picking up on TMIT's claim in another thread, I think it's worth talking about. wokeism is real, functions something like one of the worst religions in world history (not literally the worst, but pretty bad), and is a major detriment to society generally. I'm going with a short version and a...

forums.civfanatics.com

basically "woke" is used to mean whatever you want it to mean, depending which of the left you apply it to, as long as it's reasonably against your beliefs in that area. there are two problems here - first, "woke" conglomerates a lot of people that have incompatible worldviews and that often don't work for the same goals (so it's both incompatible in ideal and praxis) - second,since "woke" people barely call themselves "woke" anymore (they did for a short while after it was snatched from AAVE), it has wholly been coopted as an exonym. so it doesn't mean anything except "vaguely left" and "i don't like it". this means, in extension, that it's not actually a trend or conspiracy or whatever in eg the movie industry, but a question of rhetoric that one cannot use in anything but bad faith: it can only be bad if the left is bad. whatever the left believes, how they disagree with each other, how powerless they actually are, doesn't matter. still a marching religion conspiracy danger noodle destroying my star wars.

the fact that zardnaar recognizes the usage as such and still for some forsaken reason unironically uses it is a shining example of how baffling this usage is, esp for someone who i think votes centre-left politically. it's buying into rhetoric that has no reflection on the world as reality, but is instead solely useful for projecting power.

like, i believe zard says he uses it because it's useful. and i agree. but useful for what?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Generally its a you'll know it when you see it.

SCOTUS Justice Potter Stewart, in his famous concurrence to the opinion which created the standard whereby "hard-core pornography" is an exception to Freedom of Speech, on what actually constitutes "hardcore pornography", in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964):

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it"

emphasis mine

In other words... it is... whatever you (or more specifically, people who think like you (the royal you)) say it is... and always has been...

 

[Gori the Grey]

OMG, Disney should totally do a film titled "Woke" (since adjectives like "Frozen" and "Tangled," have been viable titles).

It should be a reboot of Sleeping Beauty, where the princess wakes up without the kiss of prince and then just goes about some cool princessing things of her own choosing, like the heroines in Frozen. At some point the Prince character gets a cameo. Beauty just walks by him. He's going about his business; she's going about hers. She opens a door for him, maybe, because his hands are full. He's not an evil, patriarchal slimeball; he's just a dude living his own life; even he's been freed up from the fairy-tale stereotypes.

If done right, it could completely take the wind out of the anti-"woke" sails.

And the main song of the movie should be titled "Go for Broke" (i.e. abandon yourself to the pursuit of your own dreams). And it should have in its lyrics every word that rhymes with "broke" except "woke."

 

[Kyriakos]

It would be first needed to define what "woke film" is. I don't see how simply having a lot of minority actors makes the film "woke". It'd have to be more forced, such as using minority actors (of different group) for the role of protagonists (ala black Achilles etc ).
Still, that's quite different from having lgbtq etc; that's not a ""racial"" minority so it's not monolithic with the rest.
If the film clearly sacrifices logic, believability (where it applies), authenticity/historical accurateness for a political reason which ties to the rather large set of "woke politics", chances are the film already had a bad plot so would fail for that alone regardless if it used actors of group x or not.

Anyway, most of the times it's not the actors fault at all. Eg that black Achilles actor had good screen presence and was better than the bulk of the others in the tv series, so ultimately he lost too because the product was trash. But various other actors/directors do actively try to shame anyone who didn't like their project, which imo is a really stupid approach since they aren't owed anything.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It would be first needed to define what "woke film" is.

C'mon Kyr, keep up. We've already covered that

basically "woke" is used to mean whatever you want it to mean

 

[Gori the Grey]

 

[Kaitzilla]

It would be first needed to define what "woke film" is. I don't see how simply having a lot of minority actors makes the film "woke". It'd have to be more forced, such as using minority actors (of different group) for the role of protagonists (ala black Achilles etc ).
Still, that's quite different from having lgbtq etc; that's not a ""racial"" minority so it's not monolithic with the rest.
If the film clearly sacrifices logic, believability (where it applies), authenticity/historical accurateness for a political reason which ties to the rather large set of "woke politics", chances are the film already had a bad plot so would fail for that alone regardless if it used actors of group x or not.

Anyway, most of the times it's not the actors fault at all. Eg that black Achilles actor had good screen presence and was better than the bulk of the others in the tv series, so ultimately he lost too because the product was trash. But various other actors/directors do actively try to shame anyone who didn't like their project, which imo is a really stupid approach since they aren't owed anything.

People should define a "good" film first.

I know one when I see it.

The money just decides who keeps getting work.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think that most films are made in lazy ways, are copycat and go out of their way to cater to some groups so that they can hope those will support them by default (but this too can fail dramatically). In the end, it only harms the film, and personally I can't care

 

[Kaitzilla]

It's more in relation to movies which is where the phrase is from.

Can't really alienate 40%+ of domestic market so kinda true.

The topic of the day is "fan baiting" I think.

Fan-baiting: the toxic culture of Hollywood progressives | The Spectator Australia

Bros is a gay romcom written by and starring Billy Eichner. The critics, we are told, love it. If you believe the reviews, it is a masterpiece. The problem is that the film had a very disappointing…

www.spectator.com.au

There is a growing trend among major movie studios of intentionally provoking and antagonising fan bases in order to gain attention and deflect criticism for what they have created. This is a phenomenon known as ‘fan-baiting’. It is a marketing strategy used by actors, producers, and film studios to stir up controversy to rationalise and justify negative reviews of a new and often highly anticipated product.

...

All of this helps explain why there seems to be a chasm between critic and audience scores on sites like Rotten Tomatoes. To the untrained eye, it looks as if they are reviewing totally different films. For critics with families to feed, it’s wise to take the safe option. Why risk sacrificing a lucrative magazine column when you can simply praise what you’re told to? Why risk career suicide by voicing your own opinion?

People just want good movies and honest reviews.

Artists should make what is meaningful to them.

Hard to meet in the middle sometimes.

 

[EgonSpengler]

fwiw, today's zombies didn't invent the term "woke", they co-opted it. Originally it was African-American slang for being aware and alert to racism, and then it came to be used for awareness of other social ills (misogyny; homophobia). I can't remember when I first heard the term, I want to say in the 2000s, but Wikipedia notes that it goes back far, far further than that, possibly to something written by Marcus Garvey in the 1920s. Wikipedia says the bluesman Leadbelly used it in a song.


Some early 'woke' movies that I've seen...

The Defiant Ones did just okay at the box office in 1958, $2,750,000, ranking something like 25th or 28th. (For comparison's sake Bridge on the River Kwai was the runaway #1, with $18,000,000).

Guess Who's Coming to Dinner? placed 4th at the box office in 1967, with $56.7m and In the Heat of the Night placed 13th with $24.4m.

In 1989, Do the Right Thing placed 47th at the box office, in part because it was a limited release. It made $27.5m in only 534 theaters. Wide releases at that time were in 1,600-2,400 theaters. It still out-performed a lot of movies that were in more than a thousand theaters. Mookie & Radio Raheem were worth more $$ that year than either Jason Voorhees or Freddy Kruger (granted, the Friday the 13th and Elm Street movies that year were terrible, but box office is at least as much about anticipation and expectations as it is the quality of the film). It also out-performed the other landmark independent movie of that year, Sex, Lies and Videotape ($24.7m, also in 534 theaters). Would Do the Right Thing have made quadruple the money in 2,000 theaters? Probably not, but maybe 2x or 2.5x. If Do the Right Thing had been a wide release and had made only double what it made, it would have outperformed Major League, Working Girl, Star Trek V, Christmas Vacation and The Abyss.

In 1991, Jungle Fever finished 43rd, with $32.5m in 844 theaters, Thelma & Louise was 25th with $45.3m in 1,200 theaters, and Boyz n the Hood was 19th with $57.5m from 931 theaters. Again, a wide release at that time was 1,600-2,400 theaters, not the 3,500-4,500 theaters of today. Both The Silence of the Lambs and Dances With Wolves have taken some lumps since 1991, but I think there's no question they would have been called 'woke' back then if the term was being used in the negative sense as it's used today, and they finished 4th and 6th at the box office.

Obviously, I'm looking up the movies that I can remember off the top of my head, but the evidence for "go woke, go broke" in Hollywood films doesn't seem to be right there in front of us, and the evidence against is mounting fast.

 

[Sommerswerd]

fwiw, today's zombies didn't invent the term "woke", they co-opted it. Originally it was African-American slang for being aware and alert to racism, and then it came to be used for awareness of other social ills (misogyny; homophobia).

This is true, but since the term has been so heavily co-opted since then, that it has lost that meaning in conventional use/understanding and popular perception. Similar to what happened with "fake news", "cancel culture", "me too", "politically correct" and so many other terms, that started out with a more narrow, specific meaning and eventually just became so overused, broad and co-opted, often maliciously so, that the terms lost any coherent meaning in terms of popular perception. That's kina where we are with "woke".

There are other terms like "socialism" and "diversity" which have the same sort of phenomenon going on. Opponents just broadly use them pejoratively and it gets to the point where they get used as a placeholder for "stuff I don't like".

 

[Kyriakos]

This is true, but since the term has been so heavily co-opted since then, that it has lost that meaning in conventional use/understanding and popular perception. Similar to what happened with "fake news", "cancel culture", "me too", "politically correct" and so many other terms, that started out with a more narrow, specific meaning and eventually just became so overused, broad and co-opted, often maliciously so, that the terms lost any coherent meaning in terms of popular perception. That's kina where we are with "woke".

There are other terms like "socialism" and "diversity" which have the same sort of phenomenon going on. Opponents just broadly use them pejoratively and it gets to the point where they get used as a placeholder for "stuff I don't like".

Ala "I beat the socialist!" ^^

 

[aelf]

Propaganda is propaganda is propaganda. It is an effective tool to control the masses. It is a sinister tool by design that intentionally is meant to pit one group against another. Those behind the 'ganda could care less what you believe as long as we are all canceling each other out.

History is full of examples of people wanting to believe what they tell us is righteous and therefor it is justified to engage in a full campaign of exterminatus against heretics. Evil advances masquerading as righteousness to achieve it's evil results.

But love. Love conquers all. It is when we truly love one another that we all work together to make the world a better place.

Yeah, not gonna overlook people complaining about minority representation just because someone is supposedly trying to make us 'cancel each other out'.

"All of this helps explain why there seems to be a chasm between critic and audience scores on sites like Rotten Tomatoes. To the untrained eye, it looks as if they are reviewing totally different films. For critics with families to feed, it’s wise to take the safe option. Why risk sacrificing a lucrative magazine column when you can simply praise what you’re told to? Why risk career suicide by voicing your own opinion?"

Are you seriously presenting this quote as some kind of insight? lmao

 

[Hygro]

To the extent corporate hollywood panders to social justice and identity tropes, they do it because it makes more money.

 

[Kyriakos]

To the extent corporate hollywood panders to social justice and identity tropes, they do it because it makes more money.

It's free advertisement. Eg that Scoobydoo series (sans Scoobydoo) got a second season, despite the massively negative reaction.
If you can get people to hate-watch, that's just as good.

 

[Moriarte]

ChatGPT's opinion:

Spoiler anti-woke :

Me: best anti-woke films, list 20


GPT: Your request seems to be looking for films that might challenge or critique certain aspects of modern progressive or "woke" culture. However, please note that art interpretation is subjective, and different viewers might perceive the same film in different ways. Here are 20 films that have been cited by some viewers and critics as offering a counter-narrative or a critique of certain aspects of "woke" culture:

1. "American Sniper" (2014) - Clint Eastwood's biographical war drama about Navy SEAL sniper Chris Kyle.
2. "Gran Torino" (2008) - Another Eastwood film, featuring a gruff Korean War vet confronting gang violence.
3. "The Dark Knight" (2008) - Christopher Nolan's Batman sequel, which some interpret as critiquing a society too quick to abandon personal responsibility.
4. "Dirty Harry" (1971) - A classic Clint Eastwood film that deals with themes of law and order.
5. "Fight Club" (1999) - David Fincher's film that critiques consumer culture and traditional masculinity.
6. "No Country for Old Men" (2007) - A Coen Brothers' film that delves into the nature of violence and morality.
7. "Joker" (2019) - A controversial film that depicts societal neglect and its consequences.
8. "12 Angry Men" (1957) - A classic film about the importance of reason and logic in decision-making.
9. "The Incredibles" (2004) - Some interpret this animated film as a critique of mediocrity and the idea that "everyone is special".
10. "Braveheart" (1995) - This Mel Gibson film emphasizes freedom and resistance to tyranny.
11. "The Fountainhead" (1949) - A film adaption of Ayn Rand's novel, promoting individualism and creativity.
12. "Gone with the Wind" (1939) - A film often cited for its depiction of American history, despite recent controversy over its portrayal of race.
13. "Dr. Strangelove" (1964) - A satirical critique of Cold War fearmongering.
14. "Inception" (2010) - Some see Christopher Nolan's film as a metaphor for the power of ideas against societal norms.
15. "The Matrix" (1999) - This sci-fi classic explores themes of reality and individual perception.
16. "Forrest Gump" (1994) - Some interpret this film as a critique of societal changes during the 1960s and 1970s.
17. "Falling Down" (1993) - Depicts an ordinary man's frustration with societal breakdown.
18. "The Passion of the Christ" (2004) - Mel Gibson's religious film, standing against what some perceive as secular cultural trends.
19. "V for Vendetta" (2005) - A dystopian political thriller that champions freedom of thought and speech.
20. "Starship Troopers" (1997) - A satirical critique of militarism and fascism.

Remember, how a film is interpreted can depend greatly on the viewer's own beliefs and perspectives.

Spoiler woke :

Me: best woke films, list 20

GPT: "Woke" is a term that has come to refer to awareness and sensitivity to social and political injustices, particularly related to race, gender, and class. Here are 20 films that have been commended for their nuanced depiction of such issues:

1. "Moonlight" (2016) - A powerful exploration of Black masculinity and sexuality.
2. "Parasite" (2019) - A darkly comedic examination of class and wealth inequality.
3. "Hidden Figures" (2016) - Tells the story of Black women mathematicians in the space race.
4. "Get Out" (2017) - A social thriller that satirizes racism.
5. "The Hate U Give" (2018) - A drama about police brutality and racism.
6. "Sorry to Bother You" (2018) - A surreal satire of race, labor, and corporate power.
7. "Spotlight" (2015) - A drama about the Boston Globe's investigation into child abuse in the Catholic Church.
8. "Black Panther" (2018) - A superhero film that explores African identity and diaspora.
9. "Fruitvale Station" (2013) - Based on the true story of Oscar Grant, a young Black man killed by police.
10. "Selma" (2014) - A powerful historical drama about the 1965 Selma to Montgomery voting rights marches.
11. "Little Women" (2019) - Greta Gerwig's adaption addresses gender norms and expectations.
12. "Judas and the Black Messiah" (2021) - A biographical drama about Fred Hampton, a leader in the Black Panther Party.
13. "RBG" (2018) - A documentary about the life and career of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, U.S. Supreme Court Justice and feminist icon.
14. "Roma" (2018) - A drama that highlights the life of a live-in housekeeper to a middle-class family.
15. "The Big Short" (2015) - A dark comedy that exposes corruption and greed in the financial industry.
16. "If Beale Street Could Talk" (2018) - A drama about love, race, and injustice in America.
17. "Pride" (2014) - A British historical comedy-drama about the alliance between LGBTQ activists and striking miners in 1980s Britain.
18. "The Shape of Water" (2017) - A romantic fantasy film that explores themes of love, acceptance, and prejudice.
19. "Thelma & Louise" (1991) - A feminist road movie that addresses issues of freedom, justice, and gender expectations.
20. "Do The Right Thing" (1989) - Spike Lee's film about racial tensions on a hot summer day in Brooklyn.

These films are applauded for the way they bring various social issues to the forefront, sparking important conversations.

Stars Wars didn't make it!

 

[Hygro]

To the extent a person calls anything that looks like it could use or be part of a social justice movement or have a nonmajority identity "woke", take a look around America.

 

[Hygro]

ChatGPT's opinion:

Spoiler anti-woke :

Me: best anti-woke films, list 20


GPT: Your request seems to be looking for films that might challenge or critique certain aspects of modern progressive or "woke" culture. However, please note that art interpretation is subjective, and different viewers might perceive the same film in different ways. Here are 20 films that have been cited by some viewers and critics as offering a counter-narrative or a critique of certain aspects of "woke" culture:

1. "American Sniper" (2014) - Clint Eastwood's biographical war drama about Navy SEAL sniper Chris Kyle.
2. "Gran Torino" (2008) - Another Eastwood film, featuring a gruff Korean War vet confronting gang violence.
3. "The Dark Knight" (2008) - Christopher Nolan's Batman sequel, which some interpret as critiquing a society too quick to abandon personal responsibility.
4. "Dirty Harry" (1971) - A classic Clint Eastwood film that deals with themes of law and order.
5. "Fight Club" (1999) - David Fincher's film that critiques consumer culture and traditional masculinity.
6. "No Country for Old Men" (2007) - A Coen Brothers' film that delves into the nature of violence and morality.
7. "Joker" (2019) - A controversial film that depicts societal neglect and its consequences.
8. "12 Angry Men" (1957) - A classic film about the importance of reason and logic in decision-making.
9. "The Incredibles" (2004) - Some interpret this animated film as a critique of mediocrity and the idea that "everyone is special".
10. "Braveheart" (1995) - This Mel Gibson film emphasizes freedom and resistance to tyranny.
11. "The Fountainhead" (1949) - A film adaption of Ayn Rand's novel, promoting individualism and creativity.
12. "Gone with the Wind" (1939) - A film often cited for its depiction of American history, despite recent controversy over its portrayal of race.
13. "Dr. Strangelove" (1964) - A satirical critique of Cold War fearmongering.
14. "Inception" (2010) - Some see Christopher Nolan's film as a metaphor for the power of ideas against societal norms.
15. "The Matrix" (1999) - This sci-fi classic explores themes of reality and individual perception.
16. "Forrest Gump" (1994) - Some interpret this film as a critique of societal changes during the 1960s and 1970s.
17. "Falling Down" (1993) - Depicts an ordinary man's frustration with societal breakdown.
18. "The Passion of the Christ" (2004) - Mel Gibson's religious film, standing against what some perceive as secular cultural trends.
19. "V for Vendetta" (2005) - A dystopian political thriller that champions freedom of thought and speech.
20. "Starship Troopers" (1997) - A satirical critique of militarism and fascism.

Remember, how a film is interpreted can depend greatly on the viewer's own beliefs and perspectives.

Spoiler woke :

Me: best woke films, list 20

GPT: "Woke" is a term that has come to refer to awareness and sensitivity to social and political injustices, particularly related to race, gender, and class. Here are 20 films that have been commended for their nuanced depiction of such issues:

1. "Moonlight" (2016) - A powerful exploration of Black masculinity and sexuality.
2. "Parasite" (2019) - A darkly comedic examination of class and wealth inequality.
3. "Hidden Figures" (2016) - Tells the story of Black women mathematicians in the space race.
4. "Get Out" (2017) - A social thriller that satirizes racism.
5. "The Hate U Give" (2018) - A drama about police brutality and racism.
6. "Sorry to Bother You" (2018) - A surreal satire of race, labor, and corporate power.
7. "Spotlight" (2015) - A drama about the Boston Globe's investigation into child abuse in the Catholic Church.
8. "Black Panther" (2018) - A superhero film that explores African identity and diaspora.
9. "Fruitvale Station" (2013) - Based on the true story of Oscar Grant, a young Black man killed by police.
10. "Selma" (2014) - A powerful historical drama about the 1965 Selma to Montgomery voting rights marches.
11. "Little Women" (2019) - Greta Gerwig's adaption addresses gender norms and expectations.
12. "Judas and the Black Messiah" (2021) - A biographical drama about Fred Hampton, a leader in the Black Panther Party.
13. "RBG" (2018) - A documentary about the life and career of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, U.S. Supreme Court Justice and feminist icon.
14. "Roma" (2018) - A drama that highlights the life of a live-in housekeeper to a middle-class family.
15. "The Big Short" (2015) - A dark comedy that exposes corruption and greed in the financial industry.
16. "If Beale Street Could Talk" (2018) - A drama about love, race, and injustice in America.
17. "Pride" (2014) - A British historical comedy-drama about the alliance between LGBTQ activists and striking miners in 1980s Britain.
18. "The Shape of Water" (2017) - A romantic fantasy film that explores themes of love, acceptance, and prejudice.
19. "Thelma & Louise" (1991) - A feminist road movie that addresses issues of freedom, justice, and gender expectations.
20. "Do The Right Thing" (1989) - Spike Lee's film about racial tensions on a hot summer day in Brooklyn.

These films are applauded for the way they bring various social issues to the forefront, sparking important conversations.

Stars Wars didn't make it!

loooool chatgpt sneaking in woke movies in the first list

 

[Kaitzilla]

Woke, not woke, who cares.

The actors are going on STRIKE in less than an hour!

Hollywood actors on strike: 'This is a moment of history,' says SAG chief Fran Drescher

Hollywood actors will go on strike Friday, after a key vote from the board of their union, SAG-AFTRA.

www.usatoday.com

Screen Actors Guild (SAG-AFTRA), the union that represents American film and TV actors, is expected to announce plans for a strike at noon PDT on Thursday, a work stoppage that would essentially bring most movie and TV production worldwide to a halt. The announcement comes 12 hours after the contract between the union and the major studios expired without a new deal. Both sides had already extended talks by 12 days after their initial contract expired June 30.

With the WGA writers' strike going a few months now, this will freeze everything solid.

The studios need to get on the phone with President Fran Drescher and work things out.
The writers too.

 

[Narz]

"Sorry to Bother You" (2018) - A surreal satire of race, labor, and corporate power.

This movie didn't come off as woke or anti-woke just silly & surrealist. I wasn't expecting much from it but enjoyed it (more in the first 3/4, less so the surrealist final 1/4)

I also wouldn't call Moonlight woke.