History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VIII

In my understanding, the title of prince was given when there was a superior king around...
"Prince" was a somewhat generic term in the medieval period, simply meaning "sovereign"; most "princes" are also dukes or bishops or something like that. It wasn't usually a title in its own right; in contexts where it's used as such, it's usually a translation of an indigenous term that doesn't have a direct equivalent in the vocabulary of Latin chroniclers.
 
Aaand probably everyone in here already knows this, but it derives from Augustus' title Princeps, which roughly translates as First Citizen.

Eeev'rything goes back to the Romans - the traditional pointy crown? A stylized olive wreath, originally. Tsar and Kaizer because they couldn't spell Ceasar.
 
"Prince" was a somewhat generic term in the medieval period, simply meaning "sovereign"; most "princes" are also dukes or bishops or something like that. It wasn't usually a title in its own right; in contexts where it's used as such, it's usually a translation of an indigenous term that doesn't have a direct equivalent in the vocabulary of Latin chroniclers.

Alright.
But when I think of, for example, an Emirate in Islamic history - it is always in the context of being a limited and relativley small state, sometimes also a vassal.

Is it wrong to imply this to the Kievan case?
If so, is there a reason why it was not translated to King in English and in other languages?
Is it just because of random developments?
 
Alright.
But when I think of, for example, an Emirate in Islamic history - it is always in the context of being a limited and relativley small state, sometimes also a vassal.

Is it wrong to imply this to the Kievan case?
If so, is there a reason why it was not translated to King in English and in other languages?
Is it just because of random developments?
I don't know much about Kievan Rus, but I would surmise of the choice of titles had to do with the ideological role played by the Byzantine Empire and the relation between the Emperor and lesser realms.
The real world isn't like Crusader Kings with a hierarchy of titles. The titles taken by rulers and how they were described was all over the place, and almost always filtered through a Roman understanding. For example, I believe it was Bede who spoke of various Saxon kings having 'imperium' over southern Britain. He was using a term with Roman connotations, that while accurate enough to describe the likely situation (overlordship of other notables), is not a situation Romans would have understood as having imperium.
 
Wasn't imperium actually originally a legal term, referring to a magistrate's right to have offenders flogged - and related authority? That Imperator -General- thus Emperor is in the mix confuses things, but that was to do with generals being selected from magistrates, and holding imperium over their men and their conquests...
 
Eeev'rything goes back to the Romans - the traditional pointy crown? A stylized olive wreath, originally. Tsar and Kaizer because they couldn't spell Ceasar.

The irony being that neither can you. ;)
 
I don't know much about Kievan Rus, but I would surmise of the choice of titles had to do with the ideological role played by the Byzantine Empire and the relation between the Emperor and lesser realms.
The real world isn't like Crusader Kings with a hierarchy of titles. The titles taken by rulers and how they were described was all over the place, and almost always filtered through a Roman understanding. For example, I believe it was Bede who spoke of various Saxon kings having 'imperium' over southern Britain. He was using a term with Roman connotations, that while accurate enough to describe the likely situation (overlordship of other notables), is not a situation Romans would have understood as having imperium.

This all makes sense once the Rus were Christianised and later integrated better into the European sphere.
But as an earlier rising power of pagan half-savages, or so they were seen, I guess - why would they relate their titles and hierachy to the Roman traditions?
And did the Romans/Byzantines do so towards other "barbarians"? Did they use the Greek/Latin equivalents of Kings and Princes for other foreign pagan monarchs?
 
Keep in mind that by the time you are talking about there was a 1000 year interaction between roman culture and those areas. Crimea was byzantine. And before being Byzantine it was hellenic already. Where kingship was very much a thing.

I do also wonder about where the king versus prince title thing came from, when it became established. It's an interesting bit of history, which I don't know about. Just saying there was a long time for it to develop, and cultural interactions went way, way back. Tens of thousands of years back, Eurasia is a single continent.
 
Tens of thousands of years back, Eurasia is a single continent.
An then there's also China, in which translators say that Duke of Jin, King of Qin, and Song Emperor are all different titles.
Influence on some steppe cultures could also come from there.
 
Rulers in Kiev and Novgorod were referred as princes (knyaz) before Christianization as well. Rurik, Oleg and Igor.
Khagan title was used by Mongol and Turkic tribes, not by the Slavs, even during the Yoke time.
The King wasn't used in Rus at all IIRC, may be with exception of Daniil of Galicia.
If they were not granted the title "prince" by the Christians but used it before -
Then why dis they reduce themselves to a lower level of monarchy?
Who was the greater overlors in their system?

In my understanding, the title of prince was given when there was a superior king around...
Confusion between titles is furthered when you realise that the Slavic word knyaz does come from ‘kuningaz’ (modern day English ‘King’) and that Tsar comes from the Roman ‘Cæsar’ (the hard plosive C mutated into a fricative before the Slavs adopted it) and ‘Korol’ from ‘Carolus’ i.e. Charlemagne, ‘the Great’ King of the Franks and also inspiration for the early disorganised Slavs.
Aaand probably everyone in here already knows this, but it derives from Augustus' title Princeps, which roughly translates as First Citizen.
The Princeps senatus is a ‘First Senator’, actually. Dignitas without auctoritas, which is the wiser choice for somebody seeking power. They also did call themselves Princeps civitatis (First citizen) sometimes, but it's confusing… see below.
Buster's Uncle said:
Eeev'rything goes back to the Romans - the traditional pointy crown? A stylized olive wreath, originally. Tsar and Kaizer because they couldn't spell Ceasar.

Wasn't imperium actually originally a legal term, referring to a magistrate's right to have offenders flogged - and related authority? That Imperator -General- thus Emperor is in the mix confuses things, but that was to do with generals being selected from magistrates, and holding imperium over their men and their conquests...
Imperium is, indeed, the command capacity or official scope of authority.
Imperator is someone who ‘roolz’, so to speak. It was a honorific conferred to a military commander by his own troops if they thought his victory on the field had been especially impressive. Later it became part of the parafernalia of titles that the Roman monarchs applied to themselves, but the first era is called the Principate because of that. Roman ‘emperors’ actually were supposed to walk the political path and hold magistracies like the prætorship and, of course, the consulship.
The Dominate came later, when they were called ‘Domine’ (vocative of ‘dominus’, i.e. lord) but even then the Senate and many of the magistracies of the Republic still existed.
During the principate the title of Imperator became attached to the ruler; not even his immediate family could bear it after a while and it became synonymous with that of ruler. Note that the Roman aristocracy of the time spoke Latin and Greek at the same time and in Greek they always called him basileus, i.e. king, but in Latin they had to find a word to not call him rex (lit. ‘king’) because Rome legally couldn't have reges i.e. kings within the sacred limit of the city (the pomerium) but somebody who just happened to be called king in all languages but Latin and happened to wield all the authority of a monarch, such as presiding the legislature, being allowed to veto legislation, being a major priest, and commanding the army, was totally another thing… for more info, check the title itself out.
 
Actually it followed the Crisis of the Third Century which happened after the Severi fell. So, yes, the Severi were the last [dynasty of the Principate but the Principate struggled for half a century before the Romans reorganised into the Dominate, especially with Diocletian's reforms.
 
He didn't bring his army back.

He brought enough of it back to carry on fighting for another 3 years. He lost enough of it to lose his reputation for being unbeatable especially amongst the Austrians and Prussians who were never enthusiastic backers of him.
 
I never understand well this issue of Napoleon in Russia was a great fail, he invades Moscow and back home.

It is a bit complicated and clearly off topic here. I will tag you with a response in a better thread; probably tomorrow. :)
I do not think it is very complicated, and it is well summed up by this graph:
 
@Samson My favorite graphic in all the world. So many dimensions of data all in one place in an easy to read and see format.
 
I have read stories (from the 19th or early 20th century) where a childhood illness occurs. In these stories, after the kid recovers, the family sometimes has to destroy or burn all the kids' possessions to prevent the disease from spreading. Was this just done for one disease, or for many diseases, and how widespread was this practice? I forget where I originally heard about it, but it was mentioned in a historical flashback in Bojack Horseman, which made me think of stories I read as a child.

I just remembered that the book I was thinking of was The Velveteen Rabbit and the disease was scarlet fever. That doesn't fully answer my question, but provides more guidance to anyone who is interested.
 
Top Bottom