Iran, the Red Sea, and the West (tm).

[Crezth]

I'll take Cuba's healthcare and pharmaceutical policies done on USA Inc. scale tyvm. Iran Theocracy sucks and Zimbabwe I can't speak on... our oligarchy is failing us, how can you not see it? just the disparity by itself should be enough to convince you...

Yeah also the glory of him sneering at a giant slave plantation that fell to what amounts to a giant slave revolt with “what a bunch of losers! They should try having money.” I’m sure Zimbabwe also just needed to be grateful for the whites. What else needs to be said? If you believe money makes you good, you’ll always believe slaves deserve what they get.

 

[red_elk]

Cuba and Haiti would be more fair comparison. After 65 years of embargo.

 

[amadeus]

What on Earth are you talking about? Neither Koreas or Poland is eating your lunch.

Besides, Poland and South Korea pay their dues. This is like asking why the loan shark doesn't monster the man who gets his loan repaid on time.

Suppose we put all of this into a single unit called “power”—a loose combination of economic, military, cultural influence. I would say there are two points of this: first, the amount of global power is always a zero-sum game; second, the traditional wielders of this power over the last 200 years I would say are the United States, Great Britain, and France.

If there was some plot to control the world, then it seems odd that the three main beneficiaries would work to reduce their own power relative to other countries.

The premise doesn’t work when people keep coming up with excuses every time there is some aberration. Korea paid its dues—what does that even mean? It’s nothing. It’s just making stuff up. Baloney.

 

[Crezth]

A loose combination of three things somehow walks away with two points. This is the power of MIMO magic

 

[NinjaCow64]

If there was some plot to control the world, then it seems odd that the three main beneficiaries would work to reduce their own power relative to other countries.

They haven’t been!!! That’s the flaw in your premise - US actions in South Korea and EU (which is primarily a Franco-German project) actions in Poland are incredibly profitable for the US and EU!!! The fact that some Poles and South Koreans are profiting as well is just a consequence of the fact it is impossible to run a comprador regime without compradors.

The premise doesn’t work when people keep coming up with excuses every time there is some aberration. Korea paid its dues—what does that even mean? It’s nothing. It’s just making stuff up. Baloney.

The South Korean economy is directly tied to the United States. Come on.

 

[Narz]

They haven’t been!!! That’s the flaw in your premise - US actions in South Korea and EU (which is primarily a Franco-German project) actions in Poland are incredibly profitable for the US and EU!!! The fact that some Poles and South Koreans are profiting as well is just a consequence of the fact it is impossible to run a comprador regime without compradors.

I understand you have learned the US and Europe have been meddling in the affairs of other nations for a very long time. This information is new and fresh for you and you feel betrayed.

However when does a nation have to take responsibility for itself? Being patronizing and saying change isn't possible cuz of colonization is like blaming mommy and daddy for your problems when you're 50.

 

[amadeus]

The fact that some Poles and South Koreans are profiting as well is just a consequence of the fact it is impossible to run a comprador regime without compradors.

How many of them? What percent are worse off today than they were in 1960?

The South Korean economy is directly tied to the United States. Come on.

Turns out they have agency and discovered trading with big advanced economies is better than not trading with big advanced economies. Who’d a thunk it?

 

[Gorbles]

Being patronizing and saying change isn't possible cuz of colonization is like blaming mommy and daddy for your problems when you're 50.

Which is funny, because this is also patronising. We get it, you don't think cause and effect exists.

Turns out they have agency and discovered trading with big advanced economies is better than not trading with big advanced economies. Who’d a thunk it?

So do China, and yet that's portrayed as Bad because China is Bad.

Tencent buying up stake in video game companies? China invading good ol' Western institutions! Microsoft acquiring yet another studio as it lays off thousands of workers? That's just how the world works, stop being naive kiddo.

Do you not understanding how we frame these things differently, despite being the same? It's all "just business". All of these social media apps harvest our data. But only TikTok is being banned in the US. And then when China bans something, it's because authoritarianism is bad (to be clear: which it is).

Just like how SK trade choices are based on "agency", when you make it pretty clear it's necessary. Not trading with such a large partner is nonsensical. You harm yourself if you don't. That's the hegemony.

You've convinced yourself it's purely mathematical rationality I guess? I dunno.

 

[amadeus]

Do you not understanding how we frame these things differently, despite being the same? It's all "just business".

I would agree broadly in principle, leaving out the minutiae of trade policy, defense considerations, etc., but none of that to me signals that there is a conspiracy of sorts that either makes other countries poorer nor makes them less politically independent*.

*independent in some senses of the word: any country that becomes more intertwined with another is going to have to navigate those foreign considerations—Canada could assert its independence by cutting off trade from America, but the consequences would be disastrous for Canadians and such a policy would be totally bonkers, so I guess their total independence is lessened in some sense, but I would take that as a consequence of choice rather than underhanded coercion.

 

[Narz]

Which is funny, because this is also patronising.

Thanks, I aim to please

We get it, you don't think cause and effect exists.

Cause & effect are all that exists but the glorious USA (or 'global north' as kids like to say these days) isn't the only cause. Which is fortunate because if it was the rest of the world would not no recourse but to sit and whinge about it & hope the USA fixes everything it influenced, but that's for suburban white kids with too much time on their hands. Let's angst at our own society & romanticize other places, that's bound to make a difference! Down with my culture (just don't make me leave my room!).

It's always "the US (+ it's rich allies) act and others merely react" like the rest of the world's leaders & citizens are monkeys in a laboratory rather than global players with their own agendas

Do you not understanding how we frame these things differently, despite being the same? It's all "just business". All of these social media apps harvest our data. But only TikTok is being banned in the US. And then when China bans something, it's because authoritarianism is bad (to be clear: which it is).

The "we" as per usual is You. China is well noted to be more authoritarian than the West because, well, it is, and I'm no social scientist but it appears that people are plenty aware of how social media apps harvest our data. But harvesting my data to try and sell me bull**** I don't need is preferable to harvesting my data to potentially imprison me if I oppose the government is a bit different as I'm sure you're aware.

 

[E.man]

Off course here.

 

[Lexicus]

The premise doesn’t work when people keep coming up with excuses every time there is some aberration. Korea paid its dues—what does that even mean? It’s nothing. It’s just making stuff up. Baloney.

Among other things, South Korea "paid its dues" by slaughtering hundreds of thousands of leftists under a military dictatorship more-or-less imposed on it by the United States.

To tie this back to Iran and the Red Sea, the reason the US considers Iran an arch-enemy is certainly not the terrible human rights violations the Iranian regime engages in, but the fact that the Islamic Revolution defied US influence and control of the Iranian economy through the monarchy.

 

[Gorbles]

I would agree broadly in principle, leaving out the minutiae of trade policy, defense considerations, etc., but none of that to me signals that there is a conspiracy of sorts that either makes other countries poorer nor makes them less politically independent*.

Depends how you define conspiracy, I guess. It's intentional? It's business? What Lexi just said applies here.

Cause & effect are all that exists but the glorious USA (or 'global north' as kids like to say these days) isn't the only cause.

Nobody said it was the only cause. As per usual, that's on you.

The "we" as per usual is You. China is well noted to be more authoritarian than the West

And? That doesn't mean the US can't be authoritarian at all. "oh but ours is better than theirs" ain't really the winning Internet point here.

But harvesting my data to try and sell me bull**** I don't need is preferable to harvesting my data to potentially imprison me if I oppose the government is a bit different as I'm sure you're aware.

Yes, famously, the US never imprisoned anyone, or even straight-up killed people, without cause. Never happened.

It was my fault for using China as an example, really. I apologise for causing the usual reflexive "everything is the best in the West" reaction. Like all good citizens of a definitely-not authoritarian country, we should put up, shut up, and never criticise anything

 

[Moriarte]

Being patronizing and saying change isn't possible cuz of colonization is like blaming mommy and daddy for your problems when you're 50.

The usual problem with analogies is that they are mostly flawed. Why would we need analogies if we could explain phenomena in simple, direct terms, right? Let's take Iran - a country living under sanctions for decades. Rarely praised, but constantly vilified, shamed, with very limited access to the Capital, to international diplomatic arena and to the markets - where they can drop off manufactured goods and offer services. In your opinion, how exactly should change look like in the deeply theocratic society internationally terrorised by competing capitalist groups during latest 100 years?

It is true that change should come from within, through elected leaders bringing forward plans of industrialisation, self-sufficiency and other hallmarks of advanced societies within economies. But how can change happen if there are active embargoes? If markets are closed for Iran to participate? If sanctions (the instrument of financial terrorism) are levied at every convenience. I ask myself how can anything good happen to Iran and its people in conditions of growing alienation? No, no, nothing good can happen in principle, until there is initial movement from collective West removing the economic noose from the neck of Iranian people.

I agree with you that every country should solve its own problems. In principle. But right now that desire is secondary to external forces pressuring Iran to stay exactly where it is in decades to come.

 

[Narz]

The usual problem with analogies is that they are mostly flawed. Why would we need analogies if we could explain phenomena in simple, direct terms, right? Let's take Iran - a country living under sanctions for decades. Rarely praised, but constantly vilified, shamed, with very limited access to the Capital, to international diplomatic arena and to the markets - where they can drop off manufactured goods and offer services. In your opinion, how exactly should change look like in the deeply theocratic society internationally terrorised by competing capitalist groups during latest 100 years?

It is true that change should come from within, through elected leaders bringing forward plans of industrialisation, self-sufficiency and other hallmarks of advanced societies within economies. But how can change happen if there are active embargoes? If markets are closed for Iran to participate? If sanctions (the instrument of financial terrorism) are levied at every convenience. I ask myself how can anything good happen to Iran and its people in conditions of growing alienation? No, no, nothing good can happen in principle, until there is initial movement from collective West removing the economic noose from the neck of Iranian people.

I agree with you that every country should solve its own problems. In principle. But right now that desire is secondary to external forces pressuring Iran to stay exactly where it is in decades to come.

I'm opposed to the US sticking it's nose everywhere and I don't deny we're somewhat responsible for damage to other countries & I don't have the answers to how Iran can change from within nor the answers on how US can change itself for the better, barely even can sort out how to solve my own problems, I just find all the "wah it's all the imperialists fault" a bit boring.

 

[Gorbles]

You'd think that something being boring or not has little relation to it being truthful or not.

Not that it matters, except for middle-aged men to pat themselves on the back about for stereotyping "white suburban kids"

 

[Narz]

And? That doesn't mean the US can't be authoritarian at all. "oh but ours is better than theirs" ain't really the winning Internet point here.

Yes, famously, the US never imprisoned anyone, or even straight-up killed people, without cause. Never happened.

It was my fault for using China as an example, really. I apologise for causing the usual reflexive "everything is the best in the West" reaction. Like all good citizens of a definitely-not authoritarian country, we should put up, shut up, and never criticise anything

Just to be clear is your opinion that US and UK are as authoritarian as China? I never claimed "everything is best in the west"

 

[Estebonrober]

Among other things, South Korea "paid its dues" by slaughtering hundreds of thousands of leftists under a military dictatorship more-or-less imposed on it by the United States.

To tie this back to Iran and the Red Sea, the reason the US considers Iran an arch-enemy is certainly not the terrible human rights violations the Iranian regime engages in, but the fact that the Islamic Revolution defied US influence and control of the Iranian economy through the monarchy.

Ty, I was waiting for someone to point out the obvious reality of how all this plays one when a nation actually does try in exert it independence in a given market.

and another thing, let me bring up my fricking Korean War thread again and watch a whole ton of my fellow Americans jsut express absolute denial and cognitive dissonance as they try to square the empty circle that is the USA Inc.'s foreign policy halo of freedom and democracy....We are an Empire. Rome and England did not micromanage their holdings either, they just demanded preferred access and some sort of tribute... very little has really changed except for the language around it...

Iran is one of dozens of examples of US (Britannia round two for those in the back seats) using force and might to dominate nation states who had the audacity to claim their own markets and/or resources...

What I'm seeing here now is a lot of whining and crying about your siblings, to carry the analogy made earlier, (fellow citizens in this analogy) are pointing out that mom and dad are garbage people. USA needs to live up to its own purported values better, and the best way to start is to stop being hegemonic and duplicitous (ie do not sign a Geneva Convetnion while committing some of the worst war crimes of the 20th century in Korea).

 

[Gorbles]

Just to be clear is your opinion that US and UK are as authoritarian as China?

It's genuinely amazing that you quoted me saying "ours is better than theirs" and then suggested my opinion was that they were "the same".

And yes, you did claim everything is best in the West. You explicitly did that when you made the false equivalence between "harvesting data" and "imprisoning and killing".

How does this relate to Iran again, by the way? I already apologised for bringing up China - I should've realised the one-track mind some folks have.

 

[Crezth]

China is well noted to be more authoritarian than the West because, well, it is,

Western political ideology in a nutshell.