OTR - JPetroski (Allies) vs. Prof Garfield (Axis)

I fixed the ME163 event, and removed the ability of radar stations to build installations. I also changed the score key information to show how many trains the Germans can extract, and how many were extracted on the last turn.

I sink a carrier near crown point, and attack the airfield for good measure (but don't kill anything there). I attacked and sometimes downed stray bombers, and poked around the edges of the large bomber formation near the Netherlands. These large formations will show the power of experten and jets, and/or force me to wait until the bombers are out of escort cover to make attacks. Just as we want.
 

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Allied bombers push through withering flak in the Netherlands (and have bomber command draw some of it, which seems to be a good use for them now) and manage to destroy a port and factory. Heavy fighting in SW England targeting those aircraft that aren't hard to kill. We don't get many.
 

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88s down a number of planes departing their targets, but expend quite a large number of shells doing so. Some aircraft take part. A few other skirmishes here and there.

Perhaps we should remove the instant Wilde Sau from the 110 and the 410. I haven't used it much in a strategic way, but it seems like it could be very powerful in the right circumstances, and we no longer need to differentiate the Me110 and the JU88.
 

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Nantes railyard destroyed.
 

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Perhaps we should remove the instant Wilde Sau from the 110 and the 410. I haven't used it much in a strategic way, but it seems like it could be very powerful in the right circumstances, and we no longer need to differentiate the Me110 and the JU88.

I'm OK with that.

How do you think the average Allied player is likely to do? I feel like I'm finally at a point where I can start launching some decent strikes, but not yet at the point where you were in the last game around turn 50. I doubt very much that I could get that many aircraft to Schweinfurt, for example.

I'm specifically curious if you think we should get rid of the turn deadlines for points for the Allies. I put them in originally so the Allies wouldn't "turtle" and had to attack, but frankly, if they don't whittle down the Luftwaffe by attacking, they aren't winning regardless. I don't think an invasion would be that successful now even if I had 3 battle groups instead of the 1 I have. We might be better off simply having them get their reinforcements at points schedules and calling it a day.

It's just very tough to say if the changes we made to help the Axis last round swung too far in the other direction, or if you're simply that much better and would still be able to win as the Allies in current state.
 
Crown Point airfield attacked, everything destroyed on the ground (eventually). A convoy sunk, and I think a couple other units attacked.
 

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How do you think the average Allied player is likely to do? I feel like I'm finally at a point where I can start launching some decent strikes, but not yet at the point where you were in the last game around turn 50. I doubt very much that I could get that many aircraft to Schweinfurt, for example.

I'm specifically curious if you think we should get rid of the turn deadlines for points for the Allies. I put them in originally so the Allies wouldn't "turtle" and had to attack, but frankly, if they don't whittle down the Luftwaffe by attacking, they aren't winning regardless. I don't think an invasion would be that successful now even if I had 3 battle groups instead of the 1 I have. We might be better off simply having them get their reinforcements at points schedules and calling it a day.

Get rid of the turn deadlines. If someone plays 20 games of OTR and discovers that it is a glaring imbalance, it will be very easy to reset the deadlines in the events, since it is only changing a special number. I suspect that most people trying out the game for the first or second time will want to make attacks, without being forced to do so. If nothing else, the free bombers are a 'use it or lose it' mechanic for one of the maps, even if forces are built up on the other.


It's just very tough to say if the changes we made to help the Axis last round swung too far in the other direction, or if you're simply that much better and would still be able to win as the Allies in current state.

Hard to kill units help the Allies considerably, but we haven't really got to see the full effect over an entire game. I think a decent part of the situation is that I contested the Atlantic, and it took a while for you to realize just how serious the threat was. I think the U-boat special industry had the biggest impact, with the Schweinfurt allowing higher level industry to be produced being the other important factor, as it made it easier to build up. I don't think the other critical industries are that important to any balance shift. I'm building 109s now, but it's not like I'm only building 109s or anything.

The Germans have a large number of cities that produce a train every 3 or 4 turns once they are fully developed, so maybe the Allies don't have enough production? Perhaps the Atlantic doesn't match that. I've been extracting 4 trains per turn from France, so a full strength Atlantic means +8 trains. But that is 24 to 32 fully upgraded cities, which might not be too far off the number of extra cities in Germany Proper compared to Britain. Maybe the Allied player should start the game getting the full complement of convoys, but have the flow reduce over time if they don't destroy ports.

I think this game is going to be quite difficult to design to be adequately balanced. I think we need some sort of catch up mechanic that is powerful but subtle enough to not feel cheap or unearned, or that losses don't matter at all.
 
I've launched several attacks destroying a port and two railyards. I also changed the rules slightly to make V1 / V2 launch pads much more expensive as I'm flooding Britain in my playtest there.
 

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Get rid of the turn deadlines. If someone plays 20 games of OTR and discovers that it is a glaring imbalance, it will be very easy to reset the deadlines in the events, since it is only changing a special number. I suspect that most people trying out the game for the first or second time will want to make attacks, without being forced to do so. If nothing else, the free bombers are a 'use it or lose it' mechanic for one of the maps, even if forces are built up on the other.

I agree - it seems unlikely that someone would simply turtle and in any event that can't possible help them as Germany can build up fairly quickly when unmolested.

Hard to kill units help the Allies considerably, but we haven't really got to see the full effect over an entire game. I think a decent part of the situation is that I contested the Atlantic, and it took a while for you to realize just how serious the threat was. I think the U-boat special industry had the biggest impact, with the Schweinfurt allowing higher level industry to be produced being the other important factor, as it made it easier to build up. I don't think the other critical industries are that important to any balance shift. I'm building 109s now, but it's not like I'm only building 109s or anything.

Oh the Atlantic was definitely where you won this game - you're still contesting it and you might re-win it too!

In a future version I might make the only hard-to-kill German units the Experten. The 190A8 fires rockets, which are pretty important, and having the 190F hard-to-kill might mean the Battle of the Atlantic is impossible-to-win since the 190F would be a very capable convoy killer, I think.

The Germans have a large number of cities that produce a train every 3 or 4 turns once they are fully developed, so maybe the Allies don't have enough production? Perhaps the Atlantic doesn't match that. I've been extracting 4 trains per turn from France, so a full strength Atlantic means +8 trains. But that is 24 to 32 fully upgraded cities, which might not be too far off the number of extra cities in Germany Proper compared to Britain. Maybe the Allied player should start the game getting the full complement of convoys, but have the flow reduce over time if they don't destroy ports.

A few options:

1. Cut Allied unit costs
2. Make it so Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia are the only places anything of use can be built except freight trains, U-Boats, V-1 Rockets, V-2 Rockets, Coastal Fortress.
3. Increase number of trains from convoys.

I think this game is going to be quite difficult to design to be adequately balanced. I think we need some sort of catch up mechanic that is powerful but subtle enough to not feel cheap or unearned, or that losses don't matter at all.

Can shield cost be changed on the fly?
 
Attacked various bomber formations. Sunk at least one convoy, maybe two.

In a future version I might make the only hard-to-kill German units the Experten. The 190A8 fires rockets, which are pretty important, and having the 190F hard-to-kill might mean the Battle of the Atlantic is impossible-to-win since the 190F would be a very capable convoy killer, I think.

With stuff hard to kill, the rockets are somewhat less important. I agree that a hard to kill fighter-bomber might tilt the Battle of the Atlantic too far towards the Germans. I'm inclined to think that a 66% survival chance for the P47 is probably more appropriate than 80%. That's a 1/3 chance to kill instead of 1/5, and now they have to be engaged.

Something else to think about is that the Germans will have fewer experten with the hard to kill mechanic in place.

1. Cut Allied unit costs
2. Make it so Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia are the only places anything of use can be built except freight trains, U-Boats, V-1 Rockets, V-2 Rockets, Coastal Fortress.
3. Increase number of trains from convoys.

Except for Lyons, I haven't really been improving occupied countries all that much. Often it was a matter of accumulating shields to replace a port or something, and then finding out that the construction was finished before the port was destroyed. And/or I ended up producing a lot of flak, and then realized the town was decently defended. If we change it so that occupied cities can't build flak, then we have a more micromanagement intensive situation where trains are sent to Germany, and flak or whatever is sent back. And moving heavy flak is extremely annoying, since you have to remember to move it. In any case, I suspect that in occupied countries, it makes more sense to defend the skies with ME109s rather than flak, since the night map doesn't have to be protected.

Maybe every bomb dropped on an Industry could reduce the home city's shield box by, say, 50 shields. This would mean that bombing raids are not strict successes or failures, but can at least do some minor damage. This could be something that could be changed as a 'catch up' mechanic without being too obvious.

5 trains per convoy might be a good switch. Perhaps we could have a random element in the delivery. Say, 4 for sure, but maybe 5 or 6 if you're lucky. Then, we can tweak the odds via event. Perhaps, we count all planes and targets, and if the Allies are falling behind, we increase the odds of an extra train. Now that I think of it, the Allies have the limited port capacity, so this might be slightly more involved. But it is certainly doable.

Perhaps we could keep track of sunk convoys, and generate some convoys as veteran units if the Germans have sunk a lot of stuff lately.

Can shield cost be changed on the fly?

Yes, but I could imagine changing the cost of units regularly could cause some confusion to the players.
 

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OK, Britain has 20 'cities', and Germany has 50, though 16-20 of them are kind of vulnerable to bombing, depending on how you count. So Germany is about +10 "developable" cities, or has the potential for about 3 trains per turn of extra production, maybe 4 accounting for other occupied production. If Germans extract 4 trains from France, this means that the Allies need to land 2 convoys per turn to make up for the shields. So, securing the Atlantic and destroying about half the ports would bring the Allies to rough parity with the Germans in terms of production potential. We might consider the 1200 fuel convoy bonus to be about 1 train during the buildup phase, so the Allies should be able to do slightly better than this analysis would suggest.

Germany starts with 44 Industry, while the Allies start with only 18 (but they have Arsenal of Democracy, which is about +1/3, I guess, so maybe count as 24), with about 4 bonus trains each available. The Allied bonus trains are also more vulnerable than the German ones. An industry is worth 30-50 shields, depending on the total number of industry in the city, so between 1/12 and 1/20 of a train. At 1/12, the crude reckoning is that Germany starts about +2 trains per turn with industry. The Allies have to knock out 6 ports and get all their convoys to England to match this.

The Germans start with ~80 aircraft, the Allies ~70, though 41 are Stirlings. With hard to kill, this might actually be a force capable of a decent amount of damage.

It appears to me that the Germans start the game in a position of +2 trains per turn, plus whatever they can sink in the Atlantic, though the Allies have cheaper planes, and, perhaps, +1000 fuel. The periodic reinforcements might make up some of this +2 trains, but I didn't count them. However, if the Allies can win the Battle of the Atlantic and deter/destroy industry on the coast, they are in a +4 trains per turn position in the long run. This situation isn't as bad as I thought, but it does require the Allied player to be the stronger player, and to be able to fight cost effectively in the Atlantic and when attacking Ports.
 
We take heavy losses to Experten but manage to down one.

This situation isn't as bad as I thought, but it does require the Allied player to be the stronger player, and to be able to fight cost effectively in the Atlantic and when attacking Ports.

Bear in mind the Allies also now start with more aircraft - 98 specifically given the addition of the Spitfires (which have a pretty limited role, but should at least make a German player seriously reconsider an early all-out assault on England, like you had). I wonder if hard to kill plus relatively safe "rodeos" early in the game will address this?

I'm not sure how happy I am with the way I have reactions currently set up, but I suppose that if the game gets to a point where 20+ aircraft are reacting each time, it is what it is. The aces might help the situation for the Allies slightly.

I'm not opposed to tweaking the fighter "hard to kill" as you outlined earlier. I can make that change at some point and add in some schedules.

Sorry for the delay but it was a crazy day yesterday.
 

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More battles in the sky, with a decent number of kills. Don't worry about any delay. We all have jobs and responsibilities more urgent than a Civ II game (at least hopefully we do!). I'm rather busy this week, so I might miss a day.

Bear in mind the Allies also now start with more aircraft - 98 specifically given the addition of the Spitfires (which have a pretty limited role, but should at least make a German player seriously reconsider an early all-out assault on England, like you had). I wonder if hard to kill plus relatively safe "rodeos" early in the game will address this?

Given that the Allies are supposed to be in a dominant position by the end of the game, the fairly close starting situation is a bit of a worry. Since the Allies must invade (and will need air superiority to do so, given German advantages on the ground), a "balanced" game would have the Allies in a dominant position on turn 125, but just barely reaching 58 cities captured. If both players start out relatively even, then Germany need only maintain the status quo for a little while in order to delay the Allies and eventually 'win'.

Perhaps starting turn 20 or something, we compute a rough idea of the relative power of each side. If the Allies are behind where they 'should' be, they have a good chance of receiving an extra convoy, if they are ahead, they don't get it (or, get it infrequently). The Germans can still intercept the convoy, to win outright if they're that much better.
 

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We destroy the port at Calais. We destroy a railyard in southern France.
 

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Sunk several convoys (I think 3). Attacked a task force with fighter-bombers, but it survived along with the convoy it was protecting. Attacked bombers in various places.
 

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I launch a few attacks but am mostly unsuccessful. I haven't changed it yet, but I do think we're going to need to remove hard-to-kill from the A8s and 190F especially. At the end of the day, the Allies have to expose their aircraft to win the game, the Germans can choose when and where to fight. I would usually make a point of trying to get most of my aircraft back to base the same turn, which is possible. At any rate, the 190F will make the BoA impossible since I can't take out aircraft that can sink my convoys, and the 190A8 was a dog in a dogfight. I think I already have it take less damage from bomber reactions or could address it there if I don't which would be much more demonstrative of the armor.
 

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Destroyed a convoy/task force stack. Another convoy killed also. A total of 30 units killed this turn. An RAF bomber was chased over the Swiss border.

Go ahead and remove the Hard to Kill for the FW190s. I think you're right that the German fighters don't need hard to kill (I think the heavy bombers should still have it).
 

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It's going to be a bit before I have time to update the events and play today - we bought a house yesterday which means I need to figure out how to sell my current house ergo figure out how to keep toddlers from actively destroying it long enough to snap a photo and entice an offer ;) I churned through "my time" this morning doing some of that, but I'll see if I can get to this during a break later.
 
No problem, and no hurry. I'll be working late. By the way, do yourself a favour and close on the new house a few days before closing on the one you have now. It makes moving so much easier. My dad has said that the interest for the bridge financing was some of the best money he's ever spent. My parents had 3 or 4 days the first time they did it, and the next time took 3 weeks, they found it so convenient.
 
The first bombs in pretty much forever fall on Freiburg, but don't kill it. I lose 5x completely healthy bombers attempting to attack a port in the Netherlands defended by 11x flak.

I'm going to start compiling a list of proposed changes that we should run through. Hopefully @Fairline will add his thoughts and you will as well in the creation thread.
 

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