P666-02 Fix Another Trash Game

[cabert]

I think my game didn't suit many of you too well
VuDu lost a city, mice lost a city (both got it back though), Pigswill said his game was trashy, from what I heard of cam he's not really happy...
I'm the only one who's pleased at this stage

Maybe we didn't choose the "best game" right in 1000 AD?

 

[cabert]

I have the feeling we have all the submissions we are gonna get
(no news from a few wanabee trashers?),
so i declare the votes open.
send your votes for trash game to cam_h before sunday evening. Earlier would be better, it would give me some time to play the next round.
I have the feeling this one won't be over in 1800 AD, and it's not in the bag yet.

a few things to look at:
techs, power and such, you already all know, but being in the middle of the continent and having waged war with 2 neighbours already, we also need to check the relations.
I'm pretty sure (i know it, to be true) some of the submitted games will have a war at hand in few turns.
Pigswill is already into one, but others have soso relations with their neighbours.
And if you open the trade screen with the soso neighbours (not all of them), you see all the war declarations options red.
An if you mouse over the items, you see the reason why :
"we already have enough on our hands" (or some english expression )

When you translate this from AI to english it means : we are going to attack you in a few turns.

 

[VuDu]

Is there an easy way to determine when it is most beneficial to switch to Free Speech from Bureaucracy?

 

[mice]

I have the feeling this one won't be over in 1800 AD, and it's not in the bag yet.

Not in the bag yet? It seems like impending doom and disaster to me . Maybe I shouldn't be so scared of the AI. The next turnset will be instructional for me because I can't see how we can beat the fast techers without war, and war will mean we can't develop any new land so well.

BTW Cabert I enjoyed studying your happiness article. Interesting point to target Notre Dame in war, and possibly to target missing resources in war.

Is there an easy way to determine when it is most beneficial to switch to Free Speech from Bureaucracy?

I guess save game and try both, but this depletes the experience for me, and it's against the rules as you know for succesion games. It's the level of mathematics where I switch off and hope for the best.

mice lost a city (both got it back though),

This was because I failed to whip a longbow when I could have. It would have saved the city.

 

[cabert]

This was because I failed to whip a longbow when I could have. It would have saved the city.

!
good to see you learned from it
for VuDu, whipping a spear would have been a lifesaver too

 

[pigswill]

"Not in the bag yet? It seems like impending doom and disaster to me . Maybe I shouldn't be so scared of the AI. The next turnset will be instructional for me because I can't see how we can beat the fast techers without war, and war will mean we can't develop any new land so well."

Its easy enough to develop new land, that's what workers are for. The trickier bit is balancing out buildings and units when you're at war.

The only run away techer in this game is Roosevelt. It probably will mean war. Having already fought with co-religionists its going to be difficult to find effective allies. The biggest danger is Roosevelt bringing in allies against us.

 

[cabert]

"Not in the bag yet? It seems like impending doom and disaster to me . Maybe I shouldn't be so scared of the AI. The next turnset will be instructional for me because I can't see how we can beat the fast techers without war, and war will mean we can't develop any new land so well."

Its easy enough to develop new land, that's what workers are for. The trickier bit is balancing out buildings and units when you're at war.

The only run away techer in this game is Roosevelt. It probably will mean war. Having already fought with co-religionists its going to be difficult to find effective allies. The biggest danger is Roosevelt bringing in allies against us.

i'm not really scared about the religious standing point : we can run "free religion", while FdR is jew, MM christian, Gandhi and hatchepetsuh aren't in the same religious block (can't remember).
But what is scaring me is the possible dogpiling we can face from those we already fought.
Sorry about the 2 front war I opened in the previous round, I was really sure JC wasn't going to be a threat anymore and I was going to finish off Cyrus (it's just what I did in fact).
We'll have war in the next round, whichever game we choose.

 

[Cam_H]

Hi y'all,

Everyone's game got at least one trash vote, but I'm sorry again my but we're taking VuDu's for 40 turns, and will be looking for the most successful submission.

I'm assuming 40 turns is 1800AD, but if someone could confirm that's correct, it would be great.

 

[mice]

I think 40 turns = 1600.

It changes at 1400 AD to 5 Years/turn. I'm not sure about this though so I'll check tomorrow when I get some time.

 

[VuDu]

Hi y'all,

Everyone's game got at least one trash vote, but I'm sorry again my but we're taking VuDu's for 40 turns

At least I'm consistent.

 

[cabert]

At least I'm consistent.

War isn't what you are used to, is it?

I'm sure you could learn a lot from this last round, maybe trying it a second time differently (more whip! diplomacy and such)?

Or just play the next round, there is action needed, of the same kind.

 

[Calavente]

Hi guys!!!

I'm sorry I'm late.
it seems to me that I missed 2 weeks instead of one.

RL is becoming more and more demanding, So I hope you will forgive me for quiting the rooster.
It was so much fun and so interesting to play with you all.

Maybe I will still lurke a bit.

I will come back to some SG games or upra-stratgic threads when life settles. (I hope it will be before 2-3 months) ...

Thanks all,

Calavente.

 

[Cam_H]

Mice,

If you could check - that would be great.

VuDu,

I have yet to see your game, but I do appreciate that we're playing a game well above your normal level, so I'm pleased you're pressing ahead.

As you know, I'm no great fan of loose technology trading, but I think we're in a state (at least at 1000AD) where Roosevelt was really starting to build some momentum, and so in this round I was prepared to trade technologies even to Mansa and Gandhi. Trading Astronomy was a particularly tough one for me, as it would let other tribes get with rich foreign cities, but I did nonetheless include it in good deals with both India and Mali. At the moment (bearing in mind I've not seen your game) I think that we have a good chance at beating those two tribes, but unless we make some headway through more successful conflict, an unchecked America will win.

b.t.w. It seems you were unlucky to have a city razed too - I would have expected at this stage in the game that Persia would have kept it.

Calavente,

Sorry to see you go - thanks for your participation, and best of luck with RL!

Thanks also for letting us know that you couldn't play on.

Dear All,

Is it appropriate that we have a pre-turn strategy discussion at this point? ...

... I know that I raised this before, but I suspect that we are at a crossroads, and certainly if my 1400AD game was anything to go by, we need to act smart and act quick.

I am mindful that winning or losing is a secondary consideration to what we're learning, but with that said, I'd hate to see us fail in an Eighteenth Century space race!

War! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing (except land, resources and population).

- thanks for your post-traumatic stress syndrome update too.

Thought for the day;

Biology is the key to the stars.

- Julius, Space Cadet, or, Do AIs Dream of Electric Sheep?
Civ4 Strategy Articles​

 

[mice]

Calavente, i'm sad to see you go. I really enjoyed your effervescent approach to the game.
A demanding RL is a good thing, good luck.


Confirmation of 40 turns date is ..... coming soon.

 

[mice]

40 turns takes us to 1650. (the change to 5 years/ turn comes at 1500 AD for future reference)

I'm off to take Persepolis for the third time. Not really. i'll wait for the strategy discussion as mooted by Cam. I say yes, we need it.

 

[Cam_H]

^ Thanks for that Mice 1650 it is then.

I won't be able to contribute much to the discussion for the next couple of days because I'm away from my Civ computer and can't see where we're at, but happy to chip in some general thoughts.

I guess some general questions;

• Is Roosevelt at Rifling yet in VuDu's game?
• How are our technology trading options?
• Are cities at or close to maximum population?
• How is our city specialisation?

 

[pigswill]

Thoughts:
Rooseveltwill get to rifling in the next round and his power will shoot up. There's nothing we can do to stop that happening.
We need to expand to compete. I'd go for Julius first. He's got a stack of hosses and will attack us anyway if we go to war with Cyrus. He's probably the most isolated diplomatically. After that it'll be Cyrus next. Maybe even Mansa.
Gandhi is sitting comfortably in the other continent and will become a serious competitor later but he's still likely to be our best trade partner at the moment.
Tech wise I'd go chemistry, steel then work towards democracy.
City specialisation is so so at present. We could do with addressing that. I'm not yet commited to Cam H's Malthusian principles however.

Calavente: shame to see you go but Real Life comes first. Hope you'll be back later.

 

[cabert]

I'm not at home, and cannot open the game.
And I won't be able to play this evening (RL you know).

But I agree with pigswill on 2 things :
1) techs to research
We need steel. I can win every game where I have cannons.
Pointy stick research may be needed to launch, but that's OK for me.
After that we'll need emancipation to grow those cottages we don't have yet and US to give those towns a hammer, and further we'll need communism for state property (= best production civic available) and spies (it's good to know how many turns the AI needs to finish a wonder ).

2) war
In our situation, we don't have enough cities and land to compete in a space race. War is needed!
And JC goes firts because :
- he is currently preparing a war vs us, so we won't even have to declare (that reason alone is enough : no choice!)
- he is the weakest
- Rome is a pretty good production city = good to have.

One more thing : you cannot engineer rush spaceship parts, you cannot poprush them, you cannot $-rush them. But you can chop for them!
Keep the woods for this (except where you want watermills : those are better than lumbermills under SP).

edit : I've been a bad boy this weekend, since I continued from my own game (while waiting for the vote's results). There is no real spoiler since it's a different game, but i hide it anyway, for those who want to avoid some guidelines you could find (like finish date and strength of competitors)

Spoiler :

I earned a space victory in 1866.
It was not a draw, but close enough : FdR was only missing 2 SS parts!
For those who opened my 1400 save, you saw I already killed Cyrus. After that I went for JC (he had no friends, and Rome is a good production city + his cities where pushing mine culturally).
After that, it was world peace for 2 hundred years, with a lot of trading (mostly with MM, Hatchepetsuh and Gandhi, since it was obvious that FdR was the only real competitor). I built the space elevator in technotitlan while IronWheat which got IronWorks early (started in 1400 AD : steel is power!) built the Statue of Liberty, Rock'n'Roll, Hollywood, Apollo Program then the most expensive SS parts.

With State Property, this riverside city is really powerful! Loads of watermills, hydroplant to power the factory = big hammers.
With some spies, you can really manage the wonder building at your own pace = no racing when you see the other civs didn't even start it :lol.

About city size, it's not relevant before communism (under SP, watermills give food!) and biology.
Pop will skyrocket after that, and we're going to need all happiness and health resources available.

 

[cabert]

Is there an easy way to determine when it is most beneficial to switch to Free Speech from Bureaucracy?

montezuma is spiritual
you can just try it

Not in the bag yet? It seems like impending doom and disaster to me . Maybe I shouldn't be so scared of the AI. The next turnset will be instructional for me because I can't see how we can beat the fast techers without war, and war will mean we can't develop any new land so well.

Well, look at the thread's title
And it's not going to be without war, that's sure.
With 3/4 CR 3 grenadiers and a pile of cannons, I bet we can take over FdR.


About next round, VuDu did mention Rome piling up units. Mounted units. All units need to head north, leaving some musketmen/LB/obsolete units south. Spears and pikes are required vs JC.
Should be a fast war against him, but don't underestimate the power of numbers and colateral damage.
If we manage to build up our power (killing JC and taking more cities is the best way to do so), we should be safe from backstabbers (except cyrus, which certainly rebuilt units vs us, but he's next anyway).

 

[Cam_H]

I'm not yet commited to Cam H's Malthusian principles however.

About city size, it's not relevant before communism (under SP, watermills give food!) and biology.

Have I taught you guys nothing?

So tech-wise it's Chemistry > Steel + Biology (although there's a Great Scientist in Physics) and we gear up for war. I'm a bit worried that Rifling will be handed around if we wait too long, but I'm really nervous about going into this Roman war with Maces still.

Take out the Romans completely and then concentrate on America? How easy will Persia be - can we afford the time?

Do we need Cavalry or can we by-pass it and go with 1 units until Tanks? Rome has Horses, so it is a possibility.