Pharaoh Ramesses -- A Despotism Succession Game

[Prof. Garfield]

I figured that the best way to start the new succession game is to simply post it and let people start playing when they have the time, particularly since the early turns don’t usually take all that long to play.

I chose the Deity Despotism game over the Deity Plus Four Spanish game in the hopes of attracting more players. If we get 5 or 6 players, then we can alter the player sequence and have a better chance of having someone available to play the game at a given time. Personally, I would welcome anyone who thinks they can at least maintain the status quo in the game for 10 turns.

We’ll have to finalize the rules for this game, although I don’t think they will matter for the first few rounds of play. I suggest that bribes are allowed (given despotism cash flow, I doubt they’ll be commonplace), but we restrict conquest until future technology, so that we play out the game rather than try for an early conquest. Here’s my proposal: we can capture enemy cities, as long as, for each continent, we have built at least as many cities on that continent as we have captured. If a civilization launches a spaceship, we can eliminate them, even if we haven’t discovered future tech yet. Liberating our own cities will not count towards our capture limit for the continent.

Large Map, 7 Civilizations, Raging Hordes Barbarians, Standard Rules, Egyptians, No starting techs.

(1) 4,000 BC: A very nice start location. 2 Whales, a canal location, and a potential third special under a grassland. I explore the hut next to the start location and get a chariot. I build Thebes. I am now faced with a dilemma: to use the size 1 settler trick or not to use it. If I disband the chariot at the right time, I can produce a settler in 8 turns while working the whale the entire time. On the other hand, the chariot can explore and pop huts and potentially find settlers or cities, but despotism corruption and waste will make such cities much less valuable. I choose not to do the size 1 settler trick, deciding that earlier production from a second city and still having the chariot will make up for the extra city, particularly since we’ll have to contend with the despotism riot factor.

(2) 3950 BC: Begin alphabet.

(3) 3900 BC: --

(4) 3850 BC: --

(5) 3800 BC: Thebes builds warrior, begin settler. Build Memphis, begin settler. Get 3 trade from working the whale. I decided that encroaching upon Thebes’ whale was worth it, because building farther away might have resulted in corruption, and there weren’t any other specials discovered, at the moment, so if we really want Thebes to work both whales, we can just set Memphis to a different tile and suffer no loss.

(6) 3750 BC: Alphabet, begin Code of Laws.

(7) 3700 BC: --

(8) 3650 BC: --

(9) 3600 BC: Memphis warrior.

(10) 3550 BC: --

(11) 3500 BC: --

(12) 3450 BC: Thebes size 2. Hut: Advanced Tribe Heliopolis.

(13) 3400 BC: Code of Laws, begin Bronze Working.

(14) 3350 BC: --

(15) 3300 BC: Hut: Barb horseman.

Notes:

There is little we can do about the barb horseman, other than hope he doesn’t take Heliopolis. If he gets damaged enough while destroying our chariot, we may be able to use a warrior from Heliopolis to destroy him.

In despotism, critical path roads between a city and the capital reduce waste (but not corruption) by one third. We may want to consider building some. Of course, we may decide to move our capital at some point, so we may want to think twice about building such a road early on.

We should also consider what wonders we want to build and where we want to build them. Pyramids should be our first priority, I think. But what other wonders do we want? Hanging gardens might be a big help for keeping our cities in order. Lighthouse would let us trade sooner and easier. Do we want to make some sort of a science city? I don’t know how effective we could make one in despotism. Do we want the Colossus? If so, where do we build it? Normally it is build in a city that already has high trade, but in despotism, it might be better to build it inland to double the trade of a city that has lots of roads on grassland and plains, rather than having to celebrate the city in order for it to have any effect.

 

[haleewud]

I have a couple of questions about the rules.

I think I understand about the limitation of capturing cities. If we build 1 we can capture 1, if we build a second city we can capture a second city.

But, can we eliminate a CIV? If an AI civ only builds 4 cities an we build 4 cities on their continent, can we capture all four of theirs and eliminate them. Are restarts turned on?

Are we restricted on our victory condition? Do we have to build a spaceship? Do we have to conquer (apparently after future tech)? Do you consider Future Tech as the first time we can research Future Tech 1, or when there is nothing left to research except Future Tech?

Since there is no advantage to researching Monarchy early, I would think that the early research goal would be trade. I assume trade is going to be very poor due to corruption, but every little bit should help. Do you see the need for any limitation on tech sharing with the AI's? This might make early discovery of Monarchy (or Republic) helpful so we can give it away. If the AI's get a better government, it might help our trade.

In regards to Wonders, I agree with most of what you said, but I would also think that Marco's would also be important (unless there are restrictions on tech sharing).

I have never participated in a succession game (having just joined CFC a few months ago) and am not sure I am really ready for the challenge. But, I have read through a few of the logs here at CFC and found them very interesting.

 

[haleewud]

A couple of other questions.

You mentioned the possible hidden special in our starting location. How soon do you normally take the time to convert the grasslands (to forest I would assume)? If it were just you playing, would your style be for the settler (from Thebes for instance), to build roads on it way to settling a new town, or do you just move as quickly as you can to start the new city? How much effort do you normally put into terraforming? Since we are going to be under despotism for the whole game, there will be no incentive to irrigate any grassland, but roads and irrigating plains could still be useful. Assuming we get that far, does farmland (and a supermarket) allow for 3 food from a worked square or are we still limited by despotism?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I have no time to play yet (almost on holiday)...but will play after it.

@Haleewud: Just give it a try. We're playing with more players and we all can make mistakes now and then but that's not a big deal. It's just fun to play....

 

[haleewud]

I just finished playing 15 turns. It is still early in the game, so I didn't feel I could cause too many problems.

The game was at the end of 3300 BC. I reviewed the cities and found everything to my liking. So I pressed enter to move to the next year.

(1) 3250 BC: Barb horse kills the chariot and suffers little damage. Memphis reaches size 2, Thebes builds settler, starts on next settler. Memphis cannot produce 5 shield due to waste. Thebes Settler moves east (toward fish).

(2) 3200 BC: Barb horse moves out of sight. Helio builds warrior. Settler starts road. Since Helio and Thebes are growing slowly, I move warriors for a little exploration.

(3) 3150 BC: Memphis needs 10 shields for settler, so I move a worker to an ocean square (reducing production to 3 shields) to pick up 2 extra trade arrows (one is lost to corruption, so I only get +1 on tax). Warriors continue exploring. Only ocean can be seen south of Helio.

(4) 3100 BC: Helio warrior starts back to city. Thebes settler moves east.

(5) 3050 BC: Move Thebes Settler NE. Memphis worker changes back to shielded grass to finish settler. Thebes warrior fins only ocean shouth and east of Thebes.

(6) 3000 BC: Memphis builds settler, Bronze Working is discovered, start Currency (toward Trade). Move Memphis settler west. Thebes settler builds road. Thebes warrior starts back to city.

(7) 2950 BC: Memphis settler builds road.

(8) 2900 BC: Helio reaches size 2. Waste limits production to 2 shields. Thebes settler moves east.

(9) 2850 BC: Memphis settler moves north. Thebes settler founds Elephantine. Elephantine starts warrior.

(10) 2800 BC: Memphis settler move north. Helio worker to buffalo for 3rd shield (24 more shields needed - 8 turns, I will not complete it).

(11) 2750 BC: Memphis settler founds Alexandria.

(12) 2700 BC: Thebes back to size 2.

(13) 2650 BC: Switch Thebes worker to forest (5 shields).

(14) 2600 BC: Barb horse appears on western horizon. Elephantine builds warrior, starts settler. Warrior moves NE to reveal ocean.

(15) 2550 BC: Barb horse moves out of sight. Memphis back to size 2. Thebes builds settler. Elephantine warrior moves SE to reveal whale, worker moved to whale.


I stopped in 2550 BC before moving the new Thebes settler. I decided to let the next player decide what to do with the settler. That player also needs to decide what Thebes should build next. Finally, there are 3 beakers left before the discovery of Currency. The next player will have to decide what to research after finishing 2550 BC.

I am not really sure that changing the Memphis worker in 3150 was really the right idea. I did gain 2 gold while not really losing any shields (they would have been wasted). But if I hadn't changed, there would have been 2 extra food in the bin when the settler was built. Memphis might have returned to size 2 slightly earlier.

I was also reluctant to spend any gold (I ended with 65 gold). With the barb horse apparently lurking just over the horizon, I thought we might need at least 50 to pay in tribute.

Here is the save file.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

But, can we eliminate a CIV? If an AI civ only builds 4 cities an we build 4 cities on their continent, can we capture all four of theirs and eliminate them. Are restarts turned on?

Yes, restarts are on. I was figuring that we could actually eliminate other civs if we "can" capture all of their cities. Of course, eliminating civs may not actually be a good idea, since we will need them to conduct research.

Are we restricted on our victory condition? Do we have to build a spaceship? Do we have to conquer (apparently after future tech)? Do you consider Future Tech as the first time we can research Future Tech 1, or when there is nothing left to research except Future Tech?

I was figuring on a conquest victory (most succession games end up being won that way), but if anyone else has a preference for a spaceship, I am most certainly open to it. I considered Future Tech to be the first time we actually research Future Tech 1, even if we can still research other things. Basically, the conquest restriction was to make sure we play a "full game," rather than go on an early conquest. Of course, given that we aren't playing a comparison game in competition with anyone else, strict adherence to and interpretation of the rules isn't overly important. They are just there to add to the fun.

Since there is no advantage to researching Monarchy early, I would think that the early research goal would be trade. I assume trade is going to be very poor due to corruption, but every little bit should help. Do you see the need for any limitation on tech sharing with the AI's? This might make early discovery of Monarchy (or Republic) helpful so we can give it away. If the AI's get a better government, it might help our trade.

I was not figuring on limiting negotiation with the computer in any way. I think it will probably be essential to manipulate the AI in order to reach Future Tech by the end of the game.

In regards to Wonders, I agree with most of what you said, but I would also think that Marco's would also be important (unless there are restrictions on tech sharing).

I was taking Marco's as a given. Other wonders, however, might get different priority than normal given that we're playing despotism. The colossus for example, wouldn't go very well in an ocean rich city, because the despotism penalty would eliminate most of its effect. Basically, we're getting trade earlier than usual and the riot factor will make expansion more costly (not to mention that we're on a peninsula, further reducing expansion possibilities), so an "ordinary" wonder policy might not be effective.

I have never participated in a succession game (having just joined CFC a few months ago) and am not sure I am really ready for the challenge. But, I have read through a few of the logs here at CFC and found them very interesting.

You'll probably do fine. If in doubt, you can always take the advice that is usually offered between turnsets. It's rather hard to completely destroy a civilization in 10 turns anyway; in fact, some of the old succession games had a player deliberately sabotage the civilization part way through the game.

You mentioned the possible hidden special in our starting location. How soon do you normally take the time to convert the grasslands (to forest I would assume)? If it were just you playing, would your style be for the settler (from Thebes for instance), to build roads on it way to settling a new town, or do you just move as quickly as you can to start the new city? How much effort do you normally put into terraforming? Since we are going to be under despotism for the whole game, there will be no incentive to irrigate any grassland, but roads and irrigating plains could still be useful. Assuming we get that far, does farmland (and a supermarket) allow for 3 food from a worked square or are we still limited by despotism?

Usually when I play, I do very little terrain improvement until about the time I'm trying to get Michelangelo's Chapel. However, this is not a normal game, so many "normal" strategies may be thrown out the window; expanding in the face of the despotism riot factor may not be the best strategy, so we may do some earlier terrain improvement.

In any case, what often happens in succession games is that one or two players will focus on one particular aspect of civ building (say, building new cities), and then the next player will decide that another area should be focused on (such as deciding there are enough cities for the moment and starting to improve existing cities). It's one of the things that make succession games fun: you can spend time improving a particular aspect of the civ, and show off a dramatic change that you made in 10 turns.

I have no time to play yet (almost on holiday)...but will play after it.

Don't worry about it. I've been rather busy the past few weeks (hence my absence from the other discussion forums) and will probably be busy too busy to do more than check into this thread for the next few weeks as well.

 

[haleewud]

I was just looking at the game and thinking about some of the problems we are going to have. I happened to look at the science advisor and much to my surprise, I see that Ceremonial Burial is about to be discovered. I could have sworn that I clicked on Currency after Bronze Working was discovered, but I guess I mis-clicked.

So I think the biggest problem with getting an SSC will not be that the SSC won't be that good. The problem is going to be that it will be so slow to make it grow. In a normal game, when you are building the SSC, it is celebrating (under republic or democracy) and growing in size each turn. Without the celebration growth it is going to be very slow to grow. In order to grow from size 8 to size 9 we will be forced to fill the food box. This will take 90 food (45 of which can be provided by a granary or pyramids). But that is still 45 food. I think the best we can hope for is a surplus of 2 food. So that means it will take 23 turns to go from 8 to 9. From 9 to 10 will take 25 turns, etc. So unless we are going to use food caravans to help fill the food box, it is going to be a slow process.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I've taken another look at the game, and I think our next tech should be map making. We're on a peninsula, so a trireme or 2 would be very useful to transport settlers to city locations.

Regarding an SSC, I think food caravans would be the best way to grow it, and maybe even be used to counteract a permanent food deficit in the city, if we were, to, say, employ some scientists rather than have all the citizens work the fields.

 

[Ingvar VII]

Hey all, I want to give this a shot, I play a lot of MP games over at civforums.de(Have 12 games running (or plodding along) right now!)

Dunno how well played my part is, I should maybe have moved settlers west instead of building roads!

(1) 2550 BC: Thebes settler moved southwest.

(2) 2500 BC: Ceremonial Burial discovered, Map making selected next. Warrior at Elephantine moved west. So is the one just built in Alexandria. Changed production in Alexandria from Warrior to Settler, with the aim of changing to trireme when Map making has been discovered.

(3) 2450 BC: --

(4) 2400 BC: Helipolis builds Settler. Moved west. Settler at Thebes finishes roads.

(5) 2350 BC: Settler moving west.

(6) 2300 BC: Civil disorder in Elephantine. Warrior ordered back.
Memphis builds Settlers. Ordered to build Warriors. Road from Thebes to memphis finished. All cities but Elephantine at 1 population.

(7) 2250 BC: Exploring west.

(8) 2200 BC: Alexandria builds Warrior.

(9) 2150 BC: --

(10) 2100 BC: --

(11) 2050 BC: Map Making discovered. A village joins the Kingdom and is given the name Pi-Ramesses. Production switched from settler to trireme in Heliopolis.

(12) 2000 BC: Giza founded.

(13) 1950 BC: --

(14) 1900 BC: --

(15) 1850 BC: Elephantine builds settlers.

 

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks for email about new game!!

In all these many years I don't remember a despo only game...good choice.

What about a limited pack-em-in opening allowing for city size 6-8, except for full size for the Palace city and/or SSC?? This would allow for (size 5) Science or Tax Shuffle, as the need arises. With Trade, even with Despo-level corruption, Advances would come along steadily. This should be possible with 3 warriors/Martial law + Mikes.

Wish I could play as this will offer many new learning experiences.

Following along will be easier if all players stick to the same game version. The first saves are v2.42 while the last is unloadable in that version...a later version, in other words. Is it possible to replay the last save in 2.42, Ingar??

Good luck to all,
Monk

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I've done a little bit of searching, and a bit of trial and error (half the battle was uploading the extra files to this site), and I think I have a way to downgrade MGE to version 2.42:

Duplicate your entire Multiplayer Gold Edition File (you may want to see if you can avoid duplicating the "scenario" folder, as it takes up a lot of space, and will be completely useless). We'll call the folder "Downgrade Civ"


Download the civ 2 2.42 patch here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=58

Unzip the entire contents into your "Downgrade Civ" folder, saying "yes to all." (make sure not to create a separate folder with the contents, as might happen based on default unzip settings; if you do, you'll have to cut and paste the contents into the correct folder)

Download the two .zip files I've attached to this post (their contents are a selected number of files lifted from my civ2 classic directory, after the computer "couldn't find them" when trying to run the civ 2 exe after unzipping the 2.42 patch into the copied gold-edition file).

Unzip their contents, and copy them into the "Downgrade Civ" folder, saying "yes to all." (The way these ones are zipped, you will have to use cut and paste, since I zipped in the folders)

Try running the new civ 2 (click the civ2 icon in the file), and you should (if things worked out like they did on my computer) get a copy of civ 2 classic, that produces saves which can be read by other classic players.

Try posting a save made by such a downgrade, and we'll see if we can open it.

 

[Bloody Monk]

Prof. Garfield,

Looking at the 2004 Despo game (Rule by Might) but the saves have been removed. If you still have and could post a save or two from ~1AD and 1300AD it would help me with a few nuts and bolts questions, especially regarding improvements.

--Temples, C'House, Markets...when to build, effectiveness, cost/benefit relative to reducing Science for Taxes

--how to deal with redheads that come from increasing number of cities...eg, is a Market necessary to benefit from incr. Lux??

Thanks,
Monk

 

[Prof. Garfield]

No I don't. I played that game on a computer that died a long time ago.

I can give you an answer regarding courthouses. Despotism corruption means that, in almost all cities, you will need a courthouse to get more than one trade arrow. Waste also takes a big hit in most cities. Basically you need a courthouse in order to give the city any value. Also, since the corruption will last the whole game, you can't "make do" without them until you hit a modern government, as is a frequent strategy in most games. Importantly, caravan bonuses are based on the uncorrupted trade, so a courthouse will make a difference in deliveries. I think they end up being built naturally, because a city can do so little without them, once you get too far from the capital.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Ingvar7, are you still around?

I'd be willing to play this game in MGE if it means getting more new players (assuming all "old" players are willing to upgrade), but I'd rather have a set of turns replayed than play the game in MGE if there will be no permanent MGE players.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'm going to make the call that the next available classic player should replay Ingvar7's turns, unless an MGE player posts before that time. If they would like, the classic player can play some extra turns as well, or play completely differently from Ingvar if they like.

 

[Ingvar VII]

I'm sorry I messed this game up.

I mostly just played those turns to see what Civilization in it's original form looks like, I have not played it this way for years and years.

Going back to Civilization Vanilla after playing all the very high quality scenarios that have been made feels like exchanging paper for writing for rock tablets.
Sure it's interesting but it's not really enjoyable in the long run.

However in spirit of this game name I started playing this:http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Ancient_Empires_3500_BC_-_Seeds_of_Greatness

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Have people lost interest in this game or has everyone been too busy to play the last couple of months?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I was busy and at the moment not able to play civ (computer problems).

 

[haleewud]

I am still interested in playing, but since I played just before Ingvar, I think I have to wait for somebody else before going again. Are we going to replay Ingvar's turns?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I was figuring on replaying Ingvar's turns, unless we get someone who has a preference for MGE, particularly since it is so early in the game.

Charlie Chuck and The Viking don't seem to be around anymore, so I guess we wait for Magic to play his turns. Alternatively, we get a new player (or, preferably, players) to join and take over.

I know there are a lot of readers out there that don't play. There really isn't anything to be frightened of in this game (though I can understand how D+4 would be intimidating). Your job in a succession game is different from that of a regular game. In a regular game, you have to build an empire's "momentum." In a succession game, you are given an empire with some momentum, and all you have to do is keep it going in the same direction, if you don't feel skilled enough to change the empire's direction. If you are unsure of what to do, you can ask others, who can give you advice tailored to your specific needs (which is different than from any other place in the forum).

Also remember that if you do make a mistake (or sabotage the game deliberately, as has happened in a handful of games), you don't have to fix it! The next guy does, and will likely view it as an added challenge.