[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[Ziad]

I don't like the bireme because you lose its trade route protection bonus as soon as you upgrade it. It's going to be barely usable in that capacity.

We don't know if they may have reworked upgrades.

 

[PhilBowles]

No, no Cree bonuses are MUCH stronger and come earlier. Mekewaps are OP. Phonecia is D-tier, except on Archipelago, which almost no one plays.

Arguably the worst civ of GS.

I really like the design of Archipelago maps, but if I were to choose a civ tailored to them I'd still go with Indonesia, Netherlands or Maori over Phoenicia.

With all the changes coming in GS (most notably the chopping overflow and the naval situation) the entire meta is about to shift yet people still think that basic yields are the only way to win.

Without chopping exploits basic yields are more important, not less. I've never exploited chopping overflow so have a good idea how to reliably win on Deity without it. I've no idea what "naval situation" you're referring to as a major change, but buffing basic yields and useable Great People (i.e. not spamming Admiral-producing districts) are the name of the game.

I've already conceded that you've made a reasoned argument that the civ is better than it looks at first glance - but at first glance it looks like Georgia Mk II. It's still not a powerful civ, nor is being able to spam harbours a recipe for a "Free Inquiry powerhouse" any more than it is for England, so please stop using (or at least overusing) the term "powerhouse".

 

[The googles do nothing]

No, no Cree bonuses are MUCH stronger and come earlier. Mekewaps are OP. Phonecia is D-tier, except on Archipelago, which almost no one plays.

Arguably the worst civ of GS.

If Phoenicia immediately had +50% production for Settlers how would they rank?

I don't like the bireme because you lose its trade route protection bonus as soon as you upgrade it. It's going to be barely usable in that capacity.

They might be cheap enough - with Maritime industries and cotton - that you can just build a large number and not need to upgrade them all.

 

[Zaarin]

The Phoenician icon. I have no idea what it is.
Edit: Apparently, it's 'alep, the first letter of Phoenician alphabet. Thanks @Uberfrog for finding out!

Also, how the heck do you pronounce the city name?
Edit: It's Leptis. Thanks @Uberfrog again!

View attachment 516153

Spotted this question while going back to the first page to glance at Phoenicia's abilities. Don't know if someone answered this. It was probably pronounced something like /lipʰˈkʼiː/ or /lepʰˈkʼiː/. It would probably be Romanized as Lipqī/Lepqī. The Greeks and Romans called it Leptis Magna (there was, as you may expect, another town by the same name, which the Greeks and Romans called Leptis Minor).

(On a related note, I wish they'd used the Phoenician spelling, qoton, for cothon--I'm going to cringe every time they pronounce the th as /θ/. )

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Okay, finally made it through the thread to date. My thoughts:

Initially, mild disappointment. I wanted a unique luxury (or luxuries) (well implemented) and a science bonus beyond the writing boost.

But after reading all the analysis about how well this civ can expand, I'm quite looking forward to this one, as I like to build lots of cities. And the loyalty and capital shifting stuff should be interesting.

The Cothon, bireme, and extra trade routes look great. Very nice leader model as well. (She might have become my avatar if Christina hasn't shown up first. Maybe in another year.)

One of the dangers of excessive speculation is that you can become enraptured with an imaginary version of a civ and thereby disappointed with the actual product.

I learned that lesson hard last year with Georgia.

 

[leandrombraz]

There hasn't been an official announcement yet. I assume Thursday. But if the rumors that the embargo lifts that day, maybe tomorrow instead.

It was announced on the official group on Steam. I'm not sure why it wasn't announced on twitter/facebook yet. Edit: It will be Thursday as usual, btw.

 

[Ziad]

I've no idea what "naval situation" you're referring to as a major change, but buffing basic yields and useable Great People (i.e. not spamming Admiral-producing districts) are the name of the game.

I mean you are commenting on the power of civilizations in GS using standards from pre-GS. Naval improvements include double yields from naval trade routes and harbor buildings receiving bonuses from commercial city states. Commercial districts may product more gold on land but the Harbor buildings provide a plethora of useful yields from food to production to gold beating out the Commercial District on coastal cities by the time Seaports are online. So the only real advantage Commercial Hubs have at this point are Great Merchants which are useful but not some dealbreaker you are making them out to be.

Best part is... you can build both.

And given the increased proclivity to naval buildings and sea trade routes, coastal cities will be more important than ever, and this naturally means that naval power will be more relevant not less. Stop dismissing it.

but at first glance it looks like Georgia Mk II.

Even Georgia is getting buffed in GS in terms of diplomatic victories.

nor is being able to spam harbours a recipe for a "Free Inquiry powerhouse" any more than it is for England, so please stop using (or at least overusing) the term "powerhouse".

Well this is a remarkably weird thing to say. Just because another civilization can potentially do something doesn't mean it's not powerful in itself. Korea has easy science districts but there are a few other civilizations that can match it in output in the right situations like Australia.

The fact is that Phoenicia can pump out cities like no other, has a cheap Harbor, and access to easy golden ages in the Classical/Medieval era for those insanely powerful Free Inquiry bonuses without ever needing to build a single campus all while having the navy to threaten any other civilizations that try to do the same. Snowball from there.

And it does all this without relying on features and yields to support it.

Anyway we'll see more on Thursday, and ultimately it's your game to play.

 

[King William I]

Funny thing is, with the lowering of city state aggression and the diplomatic favor from suzeriens, Tamar's actually tonight be somewhat decent now.

But on topic. Based on my plausrule the settlers are the best use of this civ. Multipliers are additive in VI, so Cothon + Settler Card + Ancestral Hall is a 150% bonus to settlers creation in one city. And with Magnus that city won't lose any pop.

You're gonna want to settle any coast you can and spam cothons. Once you've settled one continent to satisfaction (won't lose a city to loyalty after moving the capital) move the palace, rinse, and repeat.

Now use all those trade routes (And you will have a crap ton of them) to build up your gold. But remember to prioritize sea routes. Of course that's a fair bit easier once you unlock canals.

And let's not forget the other continent cards and the Casa. Move your capital and suddenly those core cities become supercharged colonies.

It's not flashy or new or unique. But that doesn't mean it's not powerful. It just takes a bit of work.

 

[Ziad]

All your coasts are belong to us.

 

[ferretbacon]

Even Georgia is getting buffed in GS in terms of diplomatic victories.

In what way?

 

[Disgustipated]

Remember, everybody was excited for Georgia

I think everyone was pretty negative about Georgia as well. Though I think I and a couple others tried to defend them. I knew the walls were trash, but I thought some of the other bonuses might pan out. And the golden age bonus is still fairly useful, as well as the city state envoy thing.

They are EXTREMELY weak. Might even be Georgia tier.

That's just silly talk. How can anyone with 4 free trade routes, and potentially a dozen other cheap trade routes be Georgia tier?

I don't like the bireme because you lose its trade route protection bonus as soon as you upgrade it.

I can see myself keeping a few around until late game. But honestly you could just upgrade and station your ships along your most common routes in sentry mode and have the same effect.

In what way?

Being Suzerain of a city state gives you more diplomatic favor which could help in your votes for diplomatic victory. Georgia has a way to get double envoys.

 

[Ziad]

In what way?

Suzerainty now grants diplomatic favor per turn.

Georgia's main problem was that it was geared towards a Religious Victory without having reliable bonuses to the Religion game. With the introduction of Diplomatic Victories, you now have more opportunities for victory paths even if you don't found your own religion. As long as you have a city state with the same religion, you can easily maintain suzerainty.

And diplomatic favor is a really powerful tool as it seems.

 

[bbbt]

One of the dangers of excessive speculation is that you can become enraptured with an imaginary version of a civ and thereby disappointed with the actual product.

I'm not even sure I had a specific imaginary version, I just was expecting something a little more 'outside the box'. Especially with them being saved for last, and being called 'Phonecia' instead of Carthage.

I definitely raised my expectations too high (same with the Inca to be honest), but I'm still underwhelmed by my measure of "how differently will they play vs a generic civ". Though having read this thread, a lot it now depends to me on how they've implemented the capital moving and what that can result in.

 

[DWilson]

Georgia's second main problem is that it was an overplayed joke that was turned into a civ most didn't want in the game, and it needed to wow to really hold up. It didn't. Instead, it felt as though the marketing team told the devs to make it happen, and they half-heartedly did so.

And yet, if it weren't essentially a meme in the first place, I (and many others) probably would have been less bothered by it's inclusion. It would've been seen as many of us see the other more obscure picks, such as CdM. Controversial, yes, but broadly acknowledged for the interesting background and more accepted overall. Still weak admittedly, but it wouldn't have seemed so aggressive.

Canada risks going this route as well, though seems more generally well received.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Ironically, the AI seems to do pretty well with Georgia. At least in my experience. Maybe because of the agenda to build 3 tiers of walls.

Maybe the AI doing well with it convinced Firaxis that it is fine (they probably run hundreds of AI battle royales).

 

[Sagax]

Without thinking too much of the power level, just some thoughts on the design:

Obviously, this civ strongly encourages you to try a different early game development path. I think the idea behind this design is, as already mentioned, to rush Ancestral Hall and Cothon in your capital, maybe add the Settler card, crank out settlers (you should have 2 governor promotions at this point from the civic path - put them into Magnus), and get as many cities going as possible - ideally all coastal, but I see no issue with having some inland cities, if loyalty allows that.

So you are pretty much getting close to ICS, but at the expense of going an objectively suboptimal tech/production route and slowing down your capital development. Now you are back to teching the essentials, and IMO this is the reason why they gave Dido +50% district construction from Government Plaza and trade route capacity tied to it. This is not a net positive bonus, this is more of a catch-up mechanic to compensate you for the delayed construction of other districts. Get those missing districts back quicker, and here are two trade route slots for Plaza+Ancestral Hall to help with catching up.
So, in theory, when comparing against other civs, by Medieval (?) you should end up with a less developed Capital and maybe City #2, but superior City #3-4 and beyond. We will see if this is enough to offset the delay caused by your visit to a leaf tech for Cothon, though I personally think some minor number buffs won't hurt (or just move the damn Harbor to an earlier tech!). But then, I don't know for sure how big of an impact their ICS will have. We should probably think of Phoenicia in a similar vein as Mali - slow start, but explosive momentum once you get past that. Again, just a theory.

There are some glaring issues with this strategy, though:
1. You have to squeeze in your early military, lux improvement tech, and infrastructure, somehow. Phoenicia's city spamming requires quite an investment, which may leave you vulnerable to early attacks. How low will your capital fall to set up and sustain this strategy - this remains a big question.
2. Other civs will also be settling the map. And if you didn't feel the lack of space for settling with the current civs, then you will DEFINITELY feel it with Phoenicia. Also, Phoenicia is still left at the mercy of RNG when it comes to continents and loyalty for your first few cities.
3. (Bonus!) Enough Amenities to sustain all those cities. Getting new luxuries is not guaranteed, especially if you are constrained by coastal settlement. If only Phoenicia had some sort of amenity bonus.....maybe some kind of exclusive luxury resource or something, I don't know. Firaxis managed to dig out Minas Geraes for Brazil, surely they could find something fitting for Phoenicia!

 

[PhilBowles]

I mean you are commenting on the power of civilizations in GS using standards from pre-GS. Naval improvements include double yields from naval trade routes and harbor buildings receiving bonuses from commercial city states. Commercial districts may product more gold on land but the Harbor buildings provide a plethora of useful yields from food to production to gold beating out the Commercial District on coastal cities by the time Seaports are online. So the only real advantage Commercial Hubs have at this point are Great Merchants which are useful but not some dealbreaker you are making them out to be.

Best part is... you can build both.

And given the increased proclivity to naval buildings and sea trade routes, coastal cities will be more important than ever, and this naturally means that naval power will be more relevant not less. Stop dismissing it.

The point has never been one about whether or not Harbors are good - they're fine. The point is that Phoenicia's Harbors are a rather marginal upgrade on anyone else's. They have a highly timing-dependent bonus to settlers which may as well not exist past the early game, they have bonus production to generally unattractive units (which is not likely to change - even in Civ V, where coastal cities were optimal, the combination of map generation, game mechanics and AI disinterest in the naval game made maintaining a large navy largely useless) and healing which is only situationally useful for the same reason.

To most intents and purposes Phoenicia just gets cheaper Harbors - basically the same bonus as England without the actual bonuses the Dockyard provides.

You insist on imagining that somehow Phoenicia (I keep having to stop myself writing 'Carthage') gets a major buff from harbors being better that no one else does. If coastal cities are good, everyone will settle coasts and benefit accordingly - and you're just back to Phoenicia having no real bonus beyond cheaper Harbors. Their coastal cities literally have no other advantages over anyone else's.

Well this is a remarkably weird thing to say. Just because another civilization can potentially do something doesn't mean it's not powerful in itself.

The point is, we've had a full expansion of Free Inquiry with England's cheap Harbors - and yet somehow no one is calling England a "powerhouse" because of that bonus. If it hasn't worked for that civ, it's not clear how an identical bonus will be any better for Phoenicia, who aren't any better at setting up or exploiting it than the English are. They get no benefits that increase their ability to get Golden Ages. It's not a case of comparing two civs with similar abilities, even to the extent of Norway - it's a case of two civs having exactly identical abilities and yet you expect one of them to make use of a system the other has not noticeably benefitted from.

The fact is that Phoenicia can pump out cities like no other

You can stop saying this as well. A 20% bonus to the first settler that gets progressively worse the more settlers you build and takes a Harbor-sized investment to get there is, as previously discussed, not "pumping out cities like no other". It's a minor perk.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

With regards to the Settler card, I think that depends upon what you can send your many early trade routes to. If there is a civ or multiple City-States within range, focus on getting gold to buy Settlers and don't use the settler card.

If there are no nearby destinations for foreign trade routes, then use the settler card and run domestic routes between your early cities to support growth.

 

[rlw33]

Great. She likes coastline. Yet another reason to be annoyed that fractal map generation isn't working properly.

 

[Weklim]

I'm really confused about how her capital moving will work. Ed Beach says that the Original Capital NEVER moves and references the UI team's three different capital icons. But in the First Look video, it is very clearly the Original Capital icon that moves.

How powerful Phoenicia will be is pretty dependant on how this pans out. For one, having to defend your "original capital" when it doesn't have a Palace and it's 'Palace Guard' defense buff puts you at a slight, but a unique disadvantage. Not being able to synergize the capital moving with Casa or Colonial Taxes is a much bigger loss.