Political Philosophy discussion

[Toffer90]

25th of February 2022:

Secure the territory of the two republics is an obvious one.
Perhaps an end to the 8 year long war waged right outside their borders.

(Or at least enforce a ceasefire agreement after securing the territory of the republics and disabling the regime forces military enough for them to not be able to break a ceasefire with confidence.)​

Demilitarize an unfriendly militant neighbour.
Guarantees that Ukraine will remain neutral, stop seeking NATO membership, in return for security guarantees from Russia. (Hopefully, Russia will be willing to allow Ukraine independence as well, I can't see any plausible deal that doesn't involve that)

27'th of February 2022:

We have mislead them to believe that they had NATO firmly in their corner (boxing terminology), and that they should have a confrontational and uncompromising line against Moscow; while in reality we have been throwing them under the bus from the start. The more likely explanation is that none of the western leaders who has been cheering on Ukraine and its decisions since 2014 had any idea where it would lead or what dangerous game was being played.

Now we throw them further under the bus by actively trying to prolong the war by telling them they can win and further sending weapons their way, and as Maltazard expressed in a post above, it looks like many western nations hope Ukraine will be the next Afghanistan, we really do hate Ukrainians here in the west don't we, if the long game TB said western leaders were playing is an intentional and planned sacrifice of Ukraine.

02'nd of March 2022:

The west is indeed motivating Ukraine to fight to the last man, when the sensible thing would be to give them cause to consider peace.

Ukraine is in no position to demand Russian surrender at this point.
It's a question of how long before Ukraine surrender, and the more offers they refuse, the worse the offer is gonna get. The first real offer is still being haggled about the way I see, and unless they agree to do a round 3, we will know the first offer soon.

So if you were the Ukrainian leader, you would rather let Kiev, among other cities, be burned to the ground than to accept a minor loss of contended territory, and a demilitarization akin to what Japan "suffered"?
(hypothetical being that this is not an existential war for Ukraine, that Russia's demands indeed are as reasonable as has currently been presented)

I heard the same, and in addition that Ukraine must recognize the independence of Donetsk and Lugansk republics.
The denazify aspect is still a bit of a mystery, if it is a point of focus in the peace talks, then it could be a demand that Ukraine restrict, prosecute, or outright outlaw certain ultra nationalistic organizations, like the Azov battalion, Svoboda, Right Sector, OUN, С14, etc. Perhaps also to make it illegal to glorify Bandera.

Ukraine on the other hand demands that Russia hand back Crimea and retracts their recognition of Donets and Lugansk as independent Republics.
Completely unrealistic, Russia simply cannot accept defeat in this situation

Second round of talks are underway, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainian leadership is prepared to sacrifice its civilian population and society just to spite Russia.
Ukraine, when addressing the west, demands that the west, as their "ally", start a nuclear war with Russia (paraphrasing, cause that's what a more direct western involvement means), while the west says that Ukraine clearly must have misunderstood our intentions if they thought we would fight Russia alongside them when the time came.

if indeed this is an existential war for Ukraine, I'm sure the peace talks are well documented and will shed light on that question sooner rather than later.

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Information about the peace process in March 2022 have begun to come out:

Spoiler Early February 2023 :

Youtube link Naftali Bennet interview

TLDR youtube alternative​

Spoiler November 10, 2023 :

Michael von der Schulenburg, Hajo Funke, Harald Kujat - Peace For Ukraine - Brave New Europe

The disastrous derailment of early peace efforts to end the war in Ukraine Michael von der Schulenburg is a former UN Assistant Secretary-General, who worked for over 34 years for the United Nations, and shortly [...]

braveneweurope.com

Spoiler November 2023 :

25'th of November:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1728288101725089908

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27'th of November: Breaking point link
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Spoiler Told you so, sh*ts and giggles (and crying as it is a tragedy) :

Told you so youtube link
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On the point I made about "the more offers they refuse, the worse the offer is gonna get" back in March 2022: First it was the Minsk agreement that Kiev refused for 8 years, the deal got worse in late February 2022 as rather than to federalize and keep control of Donets and Lugansk as autonomous subjects like the Minsk agreement stipulated, it now had lost Lugansk and Donetsk when Russia recognized their independence and came to their aid.
In late September 2022, the minimum demands changed to include giving away Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts

So now Russia's minimum demands include that Ukraine recognize 5 of its oblasts as Russian, and it will very likely include demands for referendum to be held in many south-eastern oblasts like Kharkov, Odessa, Mykolaiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Sumy among others. Referendum about their future (Independence, Russia or whatever is left of Ukraine), and quite a few might actually prefer being part of Russia rather than the economical disaster Ukraine in its heavy debt has become. If Ukraine continues to refuse negotiations (if it keeps the 4'th of October 2022 presidential decree in place that criminalize negotiations with Russia), then Russia will likely take Kharkov and possibly more oblasts by force during the summer of 2024, and then the minimum demand will grow ever bigger again.

Felt it was time to return to this old discussion as it is becoming relevant again. Don't care if no one wants to reply and it becomes the epilogue to the discussion or whatever; I know no one here takes me seriously on this topic anyhow.

 

[Pit2015]

As always:
BAD INSTALLATION!!!
Works entirely perfectly for me - literally started a new UEM run yesterday on the latest SVN.

Works fine until rescaled latitude limits mod is installed, or you got a bad install.

Btw you dont got drafted for the israeli war?

 

[Somebody613]

Btw you dont got drafted for the israeli war?

I'm not Israeli. Not that it's your business in the first place.

 

[Pit2015]

I'm not Israeli. Not that it's your business in the first place.

So why you had israel in your profile here a while ago?

 

[Somebody613]

So why you had israel in your profile here a while ago?

???
Mod shenanigans???
I am Jewish and I am pro-Israel (or rather anti-Hamas and anti-terrorism), but that doesn't MAKE me an Israeli by citizenship (well, yet).

 

[Yudishtira]

???
Mod shenanigans???
I am Jewish and I am pro-Israel (or rather anti-Hamas and anti-terrorism), but that doesn't MAKE me an Israeli by citizenship (well, yet).

Israel is founded on terrorism (Irgun, Stern and Haganah and the acknowledged atrocities of the Nakba) and is structurally terrorist. It's entire relationship with the Palestinians literally amounts to terrorism.

You can't be pro-Israel if you're anti-terrorist.

 

[Somebody613]

Israel is founded on terrorism (Irgun, Stern and Haganah and the acknowledged atrocities of the Nakba) and is structurally terrorist. It's entire relationship with the Palestinians literally amounts to terrorism.

You can't be pro-Israel if you're anti-terrorist.

I don't give a fudge about the "opinion" of non-Jews about Israel, UNDERSTOOD?
Anyways, this is OFF-Topic and should stop.

 

[Yudishtira]

I don't give a fudge about the "opinion" of non-Jews about Israel, UNDERSTOOD?
Anyways, this is OFF-Topic and should stop.

Oh so you're a supremacist/bigot/racist AS WELL???!

Israel itself declared Irgun/Stern/Haganah as terrorist groups. Plenty of Jews acknowledge the facts also, as if that should matter.

Moderator Action: Keep things civil and don't escalate. Arakhor has removed the most problematic posts. 1 point for flaming. - Quintillus
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Somebody613]

Oh so you're a supremacist/bigot/racist AS WELL???!

Israel itself declared Irgun/Stern/Haganah as terrorist groups. Plenty of Jews acknowledge the facts also, as if that should matter.

Like I said, your opinion only matters to you (and not me) - because, like we can see, my opinion also only matters to me (and not you).
Ya know, "mirror mirror", right?
Note how I'm not the one who STARTED the topic or even CONTINUES it.

 

[jherek79]

Can we not turn this into political or anti-Israeli rants and whatnot? There are other forums for that kind of stuff.

 

[Somebody613]

Can we not turn this into political or anti-Israeli rants and whatnot? There are other forums for that kind of stuff.

I said the same thing, lol.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah... our discord is more the place for that sort of thing if you must talk politics heatedly. The mods here are likely to react to opinions by shutting down the conversation in a way nobody wants, which is fine because we're not really here for that despite civ and c2c being about world events through history. We don't need to burn down the house with a flame war.

 

[Somebody613]

Yeah... our discord is more the place for that sort of thing if you must talk politics heatedly. The mods here are likely to react to opinions by shutting down the conversation in a way nobody wants, which is fine because we're not really here for that despite civ and c2c being about world events through history. We don't need to burn down the house with a flame war.

Just to sum it up: I play as Israel in C2C because I'm Jewish, and Israel is my historical homeland (and historical culture), not because I necessarily support Bibi.

 

[Yudishtira]

Yeah... our discord is more the place for that sort of thing if you must talk politics heatedly. The mods here are likely to react to opinions by shutting down the conversation in a way nobody wants, which is fine because we're not really here for that despite civ and c2c being about world events through history. We don't need to burn down the house with a flame war.

I had dropped this for now, but lies told here must be challenged here. Similarly the supremacism confession made here must be pointed out here. To do so on Discord or anywhere else would be weird, incomprehensible and ineffective.

 

[Somebody613]

I had dropped this for now, but lies told here must be challenged here. Similarly the supremacism confession made here must be pointed out here. To do so on Discord or anywhere else would be weird, incomprehensible and ineffective.

Get some calming pills, please. We aren't obligated to suffer for your anxiety issues.

 

[Somebody613]

"Small I may be, yet am I much;
Terrible I may be, yet am I good."
Temujin Genghis Khan

Hmmm...

 

[raxo2222]

Hmmm...

Wasn't that guy, who thinks that theory of relativity and climate change is nothing, but bullfeathers?
Or this could be other edgelord on here.

Also this thread is political horsehockyposting containment: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/political-philosophy-discussion.637751/ so post it here.

 

[Somebody613]

Wasn't that guy, who thinks that theory of relativity and climate change is nothing, but bullfeathers?
Or this could be other edgelord on here.

Also this thread is political horsehockyposting containment: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/political-philosophy-discussion.637751/ so post it here.

I do hope you don't somehow mean me, because I don't recall discussing those topics altogether.
Also, I'm not the one who started the Israel topic here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ible-by-pit2015.552901/page-175#post-16585078
But I'm perfectly happy to be the one to close it, lol.

 

[raxo2222]

I do hope you don't somehow mean me, because I don't recall discussing those topics altogether.
Also, I'm not the one who started the Israel topic here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ible-by-pit2015.552901/page-175#post-16585078
But I'm perfectly happy to be the one to close it, lol.

Yeah, it wasn't you, but still this community is eccentric to put it lightly.
We also have eccentric people on discord too lmao.

 

[Somebody613]

Will still probably take a couple months, depending on how much time I have available.

Daaamn...
May I suggest putting it somehow into, dunno, a modmod or whatnot, for now?
Because right now it causes tons of confusion and glitches due to all those various animals not being consistently systemized, leaving holes in clades all over the place.