Random Thoughts Five: Ya rolls the dice, ya takes yer chances

[Takhisis]

This is fascinating

http://nowiknow.com/losing-the-htrkos-in-the-woods/

Our ancient ancestors were so worried about bears, they didn’t even want to name them because they feared [the bears] might overhear and come after them. So they came up with this word — this is up in Northern Europe — bruin, meaning “the brown one” as a euphemism, and then bruin segued into bear. We know the euphemism, but we don’t know what word it replaced, so bear is the oldest-known euphemism.

This is not totally undisputed, but the replacement of ‘ulf’ (see English wolf) with ‘vargr’ (see Tolkien's Wargs) is a real development in Germanic languages, which would give this some credibility.

mwahahaha surprise surprise i turned this into a secret learning lesson and snerk is forced to deal with swedish spellings mwahahaha

 

[cardgame]

The Eagles' alcohol of choice becomes more unreasonable every year.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Which parts?

That fear would be the only reason for starting to call an animal for which you already had a name "the browns."

Also, let's say I grant the guy's argument, I'd still be skeptical that this is the oldest known euphemism.

Then there's this:

Nevertheless, the “htrkos” root is also one no longer in use, and for the same reason — cultures across Europe feared that using the animal’s “real” name would summon it, Beetlejuice-style.

which seems to me patently false, because, if people truly operated like this, how had htrkos ever gotten that name, or any name, in the first place? Brave IndoEuropeans gave htrkoses that name and then proto-Germanics got all scaredy-cat and wouldn't use it?

 

[Takhisis]

The part about superstitiously not mentioning it is what happened with ulfr→vargr, Gori.

 

[Gori the Grey]

The aprt about superstitiously not mentioning it is what happened with ulfr→vargr, Gori.

Are you afraid of parts?

 

[Lexicus]

That fear would be the only reason for starting to call an animal for which you already had a name "the browns."

Also, let's say I grant the guy's argument, I'd still be skeptical that this is the oldest known euphemism.

Then there's this:



which seems to me patently false, because, if people truly operated like this, how had htrkos ever gotten that name, or any name, in the first place? Brave IndoEuropeans gave htrkoses that name and then proto-Germanics got all scaredy-cat and wouldn't use it?

I read a more detailed exposition of the taboo theory and it seems to be explaining the complete disappearance of any words based on the PIE word rather than the occurrence of the euphemism. The ancient word did persist in Latin and Greek (whereas a similar replacement of the PIE-derived word with a euphemism occurred in the slavic languages) and while you mock the idea of the "scaredy-cat germanics" i don't think it's unreasonable to suppose that higher latitude = more fear of bears.

The evidence is admittedly circumstantial and I wouldn't call it a fact but it's an interesting idea at the very least.

 

[Kyriakos]

Bear doesn't mean brown in greek. The term is Arktos.
Also, going by the "nomina numina" interpretation for names (mostly god names) the original name used to actually be an epithet already. Maybe "arktos" also originally was an epithet, like Zeus (possibly from "binder") or (far more obviously) Aphrodite, Prometheus etc.

 

[Kyriakos]

Re the ignoble world of publishing:

My overall impression isn't good. Not sure why i expected something different - originally i did not - but reality seems to be pretty bad. In my view the worst thing in publishing is that what primarily matters is money, and most seek to aspire to be part of the court of the person with money.
I detest this, but it's not like this is any different with other professions. That said, it is a bit nasty when you hear someone speak just because they happen to be the relative of someone who founded a publishing house and now control it. And then see all sorts of docile or sycophantic attitudes towards them.

I think this drawing by Paul Klee presents the picture ( ). It is titled "two men greeting each other; each believing the other to be of higher rank".



Meh

 

[Gori the Grey]

I wouldn't call it a fact but it's an interesting idea at the very least.

1) do remember that my first response was to ask if it was an interesting theory and then respond, does a brown s*** in the woods?
2) I just called the reasoning suspect, not wrong.
3) my main reason for not calling something a htrkos would be . . . how the hell do you pronounce htrkos?

 

[Takhisis]

Bear doesn't mean brown in greek. The term is Arktos.

Yes, that is the whole point.

 

[Broken_Erika]

So, there's Captains America, and Captain Britain. Why isn't there a superhero called Captain Netherlands?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Because superheroes are stupid and the Dutch know better?

 

[Kyriakos]

Because superheroes are stupid and the Dutch know better?

Dutch Swartepiet disagrees

 

[The_J]

So, there's Captains America, and Captain Britain. Why isn't there a superhero called Captain Netherlands?

There absolutely is!




In all seriousness: I always thought that superheroes are a pretty American thing. Never heard of Captain Britain before.

 

[Traitorfish]

In all seriousness: I always thought that superheroes are a pretty American thing. Never heard of Captain Britain before.

Imagine Captain America, but instead of being given powers by Einstein using science in a military laboratory, he gets them from Merlin using magic at Stonehenge.

And that's basically the problem, that Captain America is an expression of and polemic about American identity, written by Americans for an American audience. Captain Britain is an outside view of Britain, written by outsiders for an audience of outsiders. There's just not much as much to work with.

 

[Snerk]

How would an inside audience write a captain Britain character?

 

[EgonSpengler]

Imagine Captain America, but instead of being given powers by Einstein using science in a military laboratory, he gets them from Merlin using magic at Stonehenge.

And that's basically the problem, that Captain America is an expression of and polemic about American identity, written by Americans for an American audience. Captain Britain is an outside view of Britain, written by outsiders for an audience of outsiders. There's just not much as much to work with.

Yeah, I'm not sure if any of the international characters written for US superhero comics come across as authentic. I can't think of one, off the top of my head. Maybe V for Vendetta, although it's a stretch to call that a "superhero" story.

 

[EgonSpengler]

How would an inside audience write a captain Britain character?

 

[tjs282]

Yeah, I'm not sure if any of the international characters written for US superhero comics come across as authentic. I can't think of one, off the top of my head. Maybe V for Vendetta, although it's a stretch to call that a "superhero" story.

It's also quite a stretch to call it a US comic -- seeing as it was set in Britain, featured British characters, was first published in Britain, was written by a British author, and drawn by a British artist.

Just because DC hijacked rescued the publication towards the end of the run, doesn't make it American...

(And don't try and tell me that Harry Potter uses a 'flashlight' to do his holiday homework, either...)

 

[Traitorfish]

It's also quite a stretch to call it a US comic -- seeing as it was set in Britain, featured British characters, was first published in Britain, was written by a British author, and drawn by a British artist.

The original run was American-produced. (Although it does turn out it was exclusively published in the UK; I hadn't know that.) It was later transferred to a British creative team, but it's still working in a framework received from the American originators.

How would an inside audience write a captain Britain character?

More kitchen sink realism, less wizards.