Remnants of patria

[knightpraetor]

is this balanced? my friends and i were discussing its use for multiplayer..it is 3 happiness and 7 hammers, correct? anyways, feel free to share your thoughts.

 

[Demus]

3 happy? i thought it was 1 happiness, and +4 hammers. Powerful, surely, but not the sole contender (ydrassil with +3 food and +health+happiness resource, dragon bones with +commerce and ivory etc.)

In multiplayer this can be gamebreaking, yes. In singleplayer it just adds more flavour. If you don't like these things ingame, eighter turn unique features off (don't know if this is still an option or not), or reduce it's probability with sto's full of resources map script.

 

[Zechnophobe]

It is 3 Happiness, it is almost literally the 'I win' resource.

 

[onedreamer]

It is 3 Happiness, it is almost literally the 'I win' resource.

it spawns on grassland, so it's not all that better than a copper on grassland. It's a very good improvement (not resource...), but not a win, unless you play with the option one city challenge.

 

[EverNoob]

Even in sp I feel it's too much. I actually avoid settling my first city near yggdrasil and remnants, since it makes the game too easy. Sometimes I just restart the game.

 

[Del69]

Ya playing as Svaltafar I had Yggdrasil in my initial sight range and it made bee lining fol a no brainier, at least with my minimal knowledge of playing FFH so far (I tend to run for the easiest strat I see while I'm still learning all the different mechanics). By the time I hit the third bonus I think it was 9 food for that one tile, not counting the fruit resource which is +1 or 2 happy faces as well.

Add in the fact that city was my capitol and awash in cottaged ancient forests to boot.

Really though I just kinda look at it as just deserts for the AI for the umpteen million times it has decided to spawn Ordos on my doorstep or plant me in the jungle some 50000 turns away from being able to figure out how to use a machete.

 

[Zechnophobe]

it spawns on grassland, so it's not all that better than a copper on grassland. It's a very good improvement (not resource...), but not a win, unless you play with the option one city challenge.

Copper requires researching mining, it doesn't give a large production boost starting the first turn of the game, and doesn't give you +3 happiness. Also, I'm fairly certain I've seen it spawn on forested Grassland, which is even nicer.

Further still, if you are going for education, that also happens to be the tech where it gets another two hammers.

 

[kenken244]

Ive had it spawn on a forested plains hill before, but that was a few versions ago so it may have changed.

 

[avalonnn]

Might make sense to turn off unique features for multiplayer. Any one of them could deliver a big advantage. Ice mana from Frigis, the dragon bones, or any of the mana types.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Mana types really aren't that big compared to happiness and resource bonus'. But yes, I do agree that for multiplayer a lot of work would be required to make it truly balanced.

 

[onedreamer]

Copper requires researching mining, it doesn't give a large production boost starting the first turn of the game, and doesn't give you +3 happiness.

but it's all in ONE city. You can't call it a win unless you play single city challenge. It's a very good boost in one city, that's all. It's not like starting in the middle of tundra rather than in grassland or even better flood plains makes much difference from having or not having this world improvement.

 

[the343danny]

Also, everything being too much skill is not fun. Each game will get repetitive. I like them because each one can change my game and keep it unique. Also, like some others said, the remnant is only for one city. It's great, but not completely game breaking.

 

[Zechnophobe]

but it's all in ONE city. You can't call it a win unless you play single city challenge. It's a very good boost in one city, that's all. It's not like starting in the middle of tundra rather than in grassland or even better flood plains makes much difference from having or not having this world improvement.

It's not a 'you win' effect if you just find it, it's starting next to it that is almost overwhelmingly good. 50 to 60% larger workforce early game, and likely double or triple the total production. It's pretty darn big.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it makes a huge change to your early game, that's for sure. I am a terrible warmonger, but wiping out the Archos ( I was Sidar ) was a piece of cake when I started next to the remnants. I was building warriors in 3 turns from the very start, nobody can hope to survive that

 

[Zechnophobe]

Exactly, and since progression is exponential, early advantages end up meaning more down the line. Conquering a nearby civ in the first 30 turns by simply building 10 warriors and sacking them is likely going to greatly increase your growth over the next 70 turns. (Just make sure you don't get into an economic sink hole).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yep, that game was an easy one after I wiped out the Archos that early actually. as soon as I got the tech that allows vassals, I had like 3 or 4 civs asking me to be their master

 

[Ekolite]

Maybe unique features should be discovered as a result of a random event?

So, between say, turn 70 and turn 150(varying with game speed), when the world is beginning to develop nicely but isn't fully tamed, there is a very small chance that each of the features will be discovered on appropriate terrains.

There could be a slight bias for them spawning in Elohim territory to fit in with their lore.

 

[onedreamer]

It's not a 'you win' effect if you just find it, it's starting next to it that is almost overwhelmingly good. 50 to 60% larger workforce early game, and likely double or triple the total production. It's pretty darn big.

larger than what ? Let's speak numbers to see if it's really that large. The +3 happiness is surely a superb bonus, but it must be in the capital's fat cross to be that superb. The production bonus of the tile per-se is far from overwhelming because you still need a coupla techs to improve it to be really good. It's the +3 pop that can really improve your production. Surely a toned down happiness (+1 ?) bonus would make this world improvement less unbalancing.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

larger than what ? Let's speak numbers to see if it's really that large. The +3 happiness is surely a superb bonus, but it must be in the capital's fat cross to be that superb. The production bonus of the tile per-se is far from overwhelming because you still need a coupla techs to improve it to be really good. It's the +3 pop that can really improve your production. Surely a toned down happiness (+1 ?) bonus would make this world improvement less unbalancing.

I don't think there's necessarily a problem with it in SP but I agree that in MP starting next to it could be a bit overwhelming. I also agree that its not so much the happiness but the combo of food and shields from turn 1.

As for numbers, you'd typically start with what, 2 shields (1 from city tile, 1 from adjacent tile)? With the remnants you can get 4 or 5 shields right off the bat without sacrificing food. That's a 200-300% production increase for those important formative years.

Yggdrasil is pretty nice to start next to too but mainly that just helps you grow faster which doesn't *necessarily* help as much as being able to spam units right off the bat... especially if you can just capture the city that the ygg player was able to build faster then keep moving your troops to the next target

 

[Zechnophobe]

larger than what ? Let's speak numbers to see if it's really that large. The +3 happiness is surely a superb bonus, but it must be in the capital's fat cross to be that superb. The production bonus of the tile per-se is far from overwhelming because you still need a coupla techs to improve it to be really good. It's the +3 pop that can really improve your production. Surely a toned down happiness (+1 ?) bonus would make this world improvement less unbalancing.

So, for instance, a city starts near some corn and the remnants, both on grassland.

Starting turn 9, the city is size two, and has a production of 4, working just the corn and the remnants. The best it could do otherwise would be something like 2... 3 if you work a forest plains and slowed your growth.

That's double production right there. Once the city reaches size 4, it'll produce probably 6 or 7 production, instead of 4 or 5. Further more, the city won't stop growing at size 5, not until size 8. That means instead of working 6 total tiles, you are working 9, which is 50% more actual tiles worked, of which one is producing a large amount of production.

Further more, it isn't particularly difficult to get two different cities to have the Remnants in their radii, which means you can get a second city to get that 3 happiness bonus too. You can build this second city earlier due to the 50 to 100% more production afforded you (If you beelined Education, you are closer to the latter).

All these things are very much multiplicative. Each bonus adding to the value of the others.