[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: War News Thread: Round 6

[Civinator]

“We know they are lying. they know they are lying. They know that we know they are lying. We know that they know that we know they are lying. And still they continue to lie.”

So why to talk about it again and again??

 

[El_Machinae]

I guess there are two versions that explain what's going on. The first is that Russian prisoners are having their boots taken and then given footwear from local supplies. It would make sense for Ukrainians to do that. Sure, it would be a comment on Ukrainian supplies being lower, but it would also not be a surprise for any government to be frugal with boots at this stage.

The alternative is that the Russians are showing up with improper footwear or are only able to loot improper footwear.


I guess now that I break it down, the one version of the story does speak better of Russian supply lines.

 

[Zardnaar]

I guess there are two versions that explain what's going on. The first is that Russian prisoners are having their boots taken and then given footwear from local supplies. It would make sense for Ukrainians to do that. Sure, it would be a comment on Ukrainian supplies being lower, but it would also not be a surprise for any government to be frugal with boots at this stage.

The alternative is that the Russians are showing up with improper footwear or are only able to loot improper footwear.


I guess now that I break it down, the one version of the story does speak better of Russian supply lines.

Taking prisoners boots is a time honored tradition.

Along with things like coats.

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

That's like pure bullfeathers going on in this theme.

We KNOW that both Russian and Ukrainian armies are rather poor, unorganized armies. Both have a lot of corruption, things are stolen from soldiers. Both have not very well organized mobilization and a random man who never carried a gun in his life can die in frontline a few days after the mobilization.
That's the starting point. Then we can list differences, like mass convict mobilization to Wagner or 500 000 pieces of winter clothing that Canada donated to Ukraine.

But when we get a single fact, about how poor are some Russian or Ukrainian soldier - like wtf, why even bother to denie this?

Why you would need TO FAKE it? It's like, everywhere! No need to fake things that you can easily find!
The only thing you can discuss is the percentage. 50%, 20% or 5% of soldiers in Wagner units have a very bad footwear? That you can discuss.

But no, @red_elk is going full propaganda mode with ignoring the reality. Sad.

 

[El_Machinae]

The amount of effort required to put into faking this video is minimal. We presume that taking the boots is something that will automatically be done. And we presume that providing replacement footwear is also something that would automatically be done.

After that, it's just taking the video and pretending that it is a snapshot of their footwear before their footwear is taken.

But this is just me commenting on the difficulty of crafting a narrative for a specific video. It's also very easy to fake before and after photos for weight loss, for example. Or to edit street interviews to make the populace look like they are idiots overall.

 

[red_elk]

That's like pure bullfeathers going on in this theme.

We KNOW that both Russian and Ukrainian armies are rather poor, unorganized armies. Both have a lot of corruption, things are stolen from soldiers. Both have not very well organized mobilization and a random man who never carried a gun in his life can die in frontline a few days after the mobilization.
That's the starting point. Then we can list differences, like mass convict mobilization to Wagner or 500 000 pieces of winter clothing that Canada donated to Ukraine.

But when we get a single fact, about how poor are some Russian or Ukrainian soldier - like wtf, why even bother to denie this?

Why you would need TO FAKE it? It's like, everywhere! No need to fake things that you can easily find!
The only thing you can discuss is the percentage. 50%, 20% or 5% of soldiers in Wagner units have a very bad footwear? That you can discuss.

But no, @red_elk is going full propaganda mode with ignoring the reality. Sad.

I'm not arguing how many Wagner soldiers have very bad footwear. You can check actual videos posted by them and see if anyone of them wears dress shoes or sneakers now, during winter.
Same for Ukrainian side, by the way. No matter how poor they are, it's impossible to fight in the open terrain in footwear like that.
Being locked somewhere in cellar, yes. They still may get sick, but at least it's possible to survive.

I'm arguing that the video you posted is cynical propaganda - rob the prisoners and present it like they are fighting in dress shoes.

 

[Akka]

So why to talk about it again and again??

Because if unchallenged, a lie repeated often enough with enough conviction will start to impose itself as truth.

I guess there are two versions that explain what's going on. The first is that Russian prisoners are having their boots taken and then given footwear from local supplies. It would make sense for Ukrainians to do that. Sure, it would be a comment on Ukrainian supplies being lower, but it would also not be a surprise for any government to be frugal with boots at this stage.

The alternative is that the Russians are showing up with improper footwear or are only able to loot improper footwear.


I guess now that I break it down, the one version of the story does speak better of Russian supply lines.

=>

I mean, video from conscripts wearing civilian footwear has been joked upon for months, usually from own Russian sources (mainly from mobnik themselves complaining about lack of gear/amenities/training). It's common knowledge for anyone following the news about the war.

 

[Civinator]

Because if unchallenged, a lie repeated often enough with enough conviction will start to impose itself as truth.

But when all people know, that it is a lie, it cannot start to impose itself as truth.

 

[Akka]

But when all people know, that it is a lie, it cannot start to impose itself as truth.

If only.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, the only people whose opinion really matters on those videos is the Russian civilians (and soldiers) or Ukrainians themselves. It's either a morale boost or a morale harm. It's not like it matters what anyone else thinks, in any practical sense. Or, I think that's true. I'm not sure what measurable effect it has on Canada's policies towards Ukraine if Russians have good boots or not, nor what we think about the status of Russian boots.

Red_Elk will do what he will with the video. He might donate more to help the soldiers. He might vandalize the property of wealthy pro-Putinists more. And there might be a subconscious effect either way, too.

 

[red_elk]

He might vandalize the property of wealth pro-Putinists more.

I didn't vandalize anyone's property

 

[El_Machinae]

It might have to become an option. Tearing down the wealth of the pro-Putinists will be one mechanism by which your society restabilizes from the economic damage being done, because they'll have less wealth whose only use is maintaining status and authority over poorer Russians. Redistribution is one of the ways a society can minimize the losses of literally getting poorer. When there's a top-down wealth imbalance, the Broken Window Fallacy is no longer a fallacy. Plus, it's a way of punishing those who think that the government grinding poverty onto their populace is a 'good thing'.

There are circumstances where some types of destruction don't actually cause the aggregate to become poorer, even though some members of the community become poorer. And that's when the wealth was being used against the community rather than for it. So, the people who want to maintain the status quo will have to decide between fixing what's vandalized or maintaining the status quo against the Russian people.

Things are going to get worse for Russians before they can get better. It makes the most sense to make sure the damage is being applied early enough and usefully enough.

 

[Sarin]

But when all people know, that it is a lie, it cannot start to impose itself as truth.

You're not from any former Warsaw Pact countries, are you...

 

[red_elk]

There are many issues in Russia including the ones with income inequality. They'll have to be dealt with eventually, but I'm not going to do anything illegal.
Much less now, when such activities will likely help enemies and lead to more Russian people killed.

 

[El_Machinae]

There are many issues in Russia including the ones with income inequality. They'll have to be dealt with eventually, but I'm not going to do anything illegal.
Much less now, when such activities will likely help enemies and lead to more Russian people killed.

It's an impossible analysis now, I'll grant. But you'll need violence against your government eventually in order to redress the harms of this blunder. Things will get worse before they get better. That part is inevitable. After that, it's a question of 'for whom?' Think about where North Korea would be now if the sanctions had actually motivated useful rebellion. Russians are going to be kill for as long as Putin is sending Russians into Ukraine - boots or no.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: How about we get back to news and away from the idle speculation about footwear.

 

[red_elk]

It's an impossible analysis now, I'll grant. But you'll need violence against your government eventually in order to redress the harms of this blunder. Things will get worse before they get better. That part is inevitable. After that, it's a question of 'for whom?' Think about where North Korea would be now if the sanctions had actually motivated useful rebellion.

That's up to our people to decide. Advocating for "regime change" from the West or attempts to intervene will only make Russians more likely to side with the government.

 

[caketastydelish]

Am I the only one who suspects Putin doesn't get a happy ending when this conflict is over? As in he is killed or at the very least overthrown? I don't think this war has gone anything like what he thought when invading.

 

[saamohod]

Am I the only one who suspects Putin doesn't get a happy ending when this conflict is over? As in he is killed or at the very least overthrown? I don't think this war has gone anything like what he thought when invading.

Russia may go the way of N.Korea or Iran thereby even strengthening his power.

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

Am I the only one who suspects Putin doesn't get a happy ending when this conflict is over?

Just curious, why you are saying "conflict" and not "war"?