SGOTM 14 - Plastic Ducks

[kossin]

We can't explore their lands anyway because they won't OB. We could try going back to the center but the barbs will be heading towards Culture by that time = dead Toto. I don't mind too much.

 

[Deity player]

I will at least try to get some more info about the map with him and if we are lucky, he will deserve 10 exp. If not ---> less unit supply .

Just to be sure: we only need to connect 1 tile of AI's culture by the coast, right? It doesn't matter whether we reveal an AI's city or not, right?

 

[kossin]

Yes, but post a screenshot to be certain when you think you got it.

 

[Deity player]

I will.

 

[Duckweed]

I'm glad to see things getting solved and move again. I can fully understand that everyone's free time is limited and will be inactive sometime due to RL issues. My major concern before was the lack of willingness of making changes.

Regarding Toto move

I doubt Toto can survive by entering the central area again. It's 7 exp now. With 1 more battle, it can be helpful immediately in the 1st place of battlefield. I'd like to keep him alive. If you could send him following an AI unit, then go head safely, otherwise, just wander around the forest and see if he can get another promotion.

Regard new site

I am undecided what to do without running tests. It's better to settle the silk site to include the fish tile for long term consideration. However, I don't know how it affects the timing of city growth. We lose 1 forest this way, however, the extra fish and a FP tile should give more than a LH. I think it definitely worth to reevaluate the situation.

 

[kossin]

The site will get 12f without LH or farms, which is indeed better. Size 9 runs 6 scientists without a hick. The fish needs to be shared with Ivory later as you noted some weeks ago, the city is too strong in food. Snaaty suggested this exact thing also

Downside is lost shared tiles with NY.

It might give us 1T on gpp, but don't expect research to be done by then.

 

[Duckweed]

Yes, it's the same settling pattern, but it's more meaningful now. Before seeing the extra clam and the dye, the optimal site is on pH. Without the extra clam, the new site is just a mediocre site similar as the marble site. The best result comes from adapting the new situation in time.

 

[kossin]

Gentlemen, we need a kind soul to update the test game up until T68, and then some testing to compare the growth of the city grabbing Fish+pigs+clam+fp.

Any takers?

 

[Bebekija]

^^Deity would probably be the best person to update the test game since he has the live game in hands, but if he can't find time before tonight, I will. And then I will compare the growth of the two possible silk sites.

Edit : And, regarding Toto, I always forget about the medic ability of Woody III, so I agree with Duckweed that the best we can do with him is bring him to Lvl 3. Following an AI unit is probably the best thing to try since we have now entered the era of spears and axes, and even hiding in a forest with Woody II is not going to protect a warrior from those guys....

 

[Deity player]

Here you have the updated test game. Everything should be correct, only the area explored by Toto is maybe not precisly the same. The worldbuilder is not so much unfriendly as I thought .

 

[Bebekija]

Here you have the updated test game. Everything should be correct, only the area explored by Toto is maybe not precisly the same. The worldbuilder is not so much unfriendly as I thought .

The wheat bug happened again ....

I think the hammers already invested in the settler are accurate though, so you may just have to fix the wheat (IIRC you have to put a river and erase it, like kossin did earlier)

I'm currently testing the Silk+Fish site, and while I will wait to give a definitive answer, it is not looking good : the extra workboat needed messes up things quite a bit...)

 

[kossin]

What size did you get the city to on T91?

 

[Deity player]

The wheat bug happened again ....

I think the hammers already invested in the settler are accurate though, so you may just have to fix the wheat (IIRC you have to put a river and erase it, like kossin did earlier)

Done.

EDIT: The hammers invested in the settler are correct.

 

[Bebekija]

What size did you get the city to on T91?

Well it depends on how one manages the WB situation.
The first test I did, I left the WB production as it is, i.e. workboats out on turns 72(Philly), 75(Boston), 79(Boston), 81(Philly) and 82(Boston). I left the Silk clams for last, and as a result, they were never improved (at least not until T91). The crabs in Canal were also late by 2 turns, but all other seafood was improved in time.
Results @T91:
- Canal : P7 (33/34) (NB: could have been P8 if I had traded for IW and chopped the jungle, but I chose the worst case scenario)
- Silver : P7 (32/34) (irrelevant, because I made a micro mistake and improved the pigs 1 turn too late, should be P8 if done right)
- Silk : P8 (32/36) (After the chops, I used the 2 workers + 1 from Silver to farm both grass + FP ; it helped compensate for the lack of nets on the clams)

I will now try to produce a faster workboat so that all seafood can be improved in a reasonable fashion. 2 possibilities : chop a workboat in Philly delaying a granary there, or chop it directly in Silk, thus delaying the LH)

 

[kossin]

One trick I used in an old test, which I wouldn't recommend now because we have to keep the AIs as happy as we can, is to revolt into Confucianism to avoid working bad tiles.

Those numbers are pretty good anyway and there's another thing we can do: run specialists instead of 2F tiles while growing. This adds earlier gpp, lowers chance of Artists and might just be faster overall. The math behind it is not pretty but, for example, in NY the 4th pop is better as a specialist than on the lake food-wise.

I'll try to run a test to see how GPP+research changes with the new location in the next few days (quite busy lately).

 

[Duckweed]

I will now try to produce a faster workboat so that all seafood can be improved in a reasonable fashion. 2 possibilities : chop a workboat in Philly delaying a granary there, or chop it directly in Silk, thus delaying the LH)

My 1st thought of the micro in silk city is to see if you could chop a forest to WB to improve the fish before granary. If so, then chop the 2nd and 3rd to granary ->improve pig -> chop 4th forest to another WB for the clam. Otherwise 1st and 2nd to granary ->improve the pig -> 3rd and 4th to WBs for the fish and clam. In any case, I'd skip LH there. I'm not sure whether we need to irrigate any farm there, we can draw those workers back to help Washington, I prefer a safer mids date than a stronger silk city.

 

[Bebekija]

My 1st thought of the micro in silk city is to see if you could chop a forest to WB to improve the fish before granary. If so, then chop the 2nd and 3rd to granary ->improve pig -> chop 4th forest to another WB for the clam. Otherwise 1st and 2nd to granary ->improve the pig -> 3rd and 4th to WBs for the fish and clam. In any case, I'd skip LH there. I'm not sure whether we need to irrigate any farm there, we can draw those workers back to help Washington, I prefer a safer mids date than a stronger silk city.

My second test went exactly as you suggest except that I did farm one grass and the floodplains.
Result : @T91, the city is Pop 9 (26/38)
Chopping the WB for the clams doesn't make them improved sooner (actually they're delayed for one turn), but not having to move a workboat all the way around is huge, it allows to keep it in Silver/Canal, so these two cities don't suffer at all from this new location.

Btw, I checked and not irrigating the farms will cost 10F compared to the above test. So the city would end up at only Pop 8 (34/36)

 

[kossin]

Excellent then. Where should the workers end up for Deity's last turn according to that test+actions?

10F is 5 spec turns = 60 beakers if we want to run some food deficit. Otherwise, the gpp will only slightly be behind. I'd trade that for some extra action around Washington (=faster Myds, = potential faster Monastery+Missionary, = faster next 2 settlers).

 

[Bebekija]

Excellent then. Where should the workers end up for Deity's last turn according to that test+actions?

Here is the worker micro around Silk+Fish in my latest test :
-T69 : The worker who just finished the PH NW of Wash (named Worker 5 in the test game, thereafter W5) moves to the PH SE of the silks.
-T70 : W5 moves on the southern Silk
-T71 : W5 chops and cancel
-T72 : W5 moves on northern Silk || one of the worker who just finished roading the gold (Worker 2 in the test game, thereafter W2) moves 1N of the Wash sheep
-T73 : W5 chops || W2 moves to the forested grass hill 1SE of W5
-T74 : Silk+Fish settled || W2 chops
-T75 : W5 chops into a WB
-T76 : WB moves on fish || W5 moves back to southern silk || W2 chops into granary
-T77 : Border pop => work improved fish || W5 chops (2/3) || W2 moves to pigs and pasture (1/4)
-T78 : W5 chops into granary || W2 pasture (2/4)
-T79 : W5 moves to pigs and pasture with W2 (4/4) || City works improved pigs || the granary is up while Silk is (10/22) so it will be full when growing to P2
-T80 : W2 and W5 move to forest 2E
-T81 : W2 and W5 chop (2/3) || City grows to P2 (14/24) => work improved fish
-T82 : W2 chops into WB || W5 is free to go somewhere else
-T83 : City grows to P3 (17/26) => works unimproved FP || W2 is free to go somewhere else
-T84 : City grows to P4 (14/28) => works food neutral tile
-T85 : Clams improved => City works Pigs+Fish+Clams+FP
...
-T91 : City grows to P8 (34/36)

I think it's pretty optimal, but you can always correct it if you find something better.

 

[Deity player]

Interesting. Losing many turns by moving to forest tiles but the result looks fine . Very interesting test .