Some suggestion about Recon Units.(To give them unique abilities)

[myclan]

In this thread I doubt that whether Recon Units are causing too much trouble for civilian units. But many think They should be able to harass Civilian Units or Strategic Resources just like Special Forces. I totally agree we need someone to play that role, but here are a bit concerns.

Are pathfinders or scouts a too much threat for workers and settlers?

With 2 promotions, they can move 4 tiles per turn in desert/forest/jungle/tundra, and ignore ZOC. Which means easily to attack a worker or settler from a tile even out of sight. Will it be better to make a little restriction for them? They are also the easiest to get XP for promotion in the...

forums.civfanatics.com

1. Now Scouts are running 2 times faster in desert/snow/hill with forest than plains/grass without any feature. Even Modern Amor with 5 movement can't catch up with them in flat desert.
2. With high movement and ignore ZOC, they can escape from enemy easily and make Survivalism less appealing
3. In late game we often have a big empire, with many inland tiles far from enemies. But in early game, we often have sparse cities only, all the borderland are vulnerable. It's difficult to have enough units to cover every tile.

If we want to make Recon Units very different from other units, give them unique abilities.

1. To reveal tiles unknows and collect Ancient Ruins, this is only true in early game.

2. To ambush weak units/tiles which are valuable but not well protected, like strategy resources or siege weapons. Different from Mounted Units for they can ignore terrain cost and defend themselves better.

3.To help other units heal faster. They can be the only Medic units.

Gives them +1 sight, ignore terrain cost, even +1 movement at the beginning, so better than other units in 1.
Make Medic line only available for them.
Survivalism the other line, make them not easily killed after 2.
ZOC, +more sight, +further movement, embark/Mountain and others can be leaf promotion.

Welcome any discussion.

 

[azum4roll]

If Pathfinders and Scouts are the only problematic units, why are you changing the whole line?

As I said before, just give them Half Speed in Enemy Territory.

 

[rkkn]

As I said before, just give them Half Speed in Enemy Territory.

I think half speed in enemy territory is a little excessive. I'd make a more targeted change: They only ignore ZoC in neutral or friendly territory. That's the part that makes them impossible to defend against or pin down. Scouts running around the outskirts providing vision is not problematic. It's what they should be doing. No need to nerf that. It's that they can run in past your units to cause some havok and then run past them again to escape with nothing you can do to stop them. That's the only part that needs to be checked, and getting rid of ignore ZoC will take care of that.

Possibly also have a later tech that re-enables ignoring ZoC in enemy territory, or a tech-locked promo that lets them do it.

 

[Tekamthi]

given current state of available promotion effects, imo we need to remove 'ignore terrain cost' and adjust other movement bonuses to achieve a desireable movement regime for recon

half-speed in enemy territory on its own is an imperfect solution, though i agree it *might* have a place in a broader adjustment to these units -- i've never tested it but I wonder if half-speed would be treated as a "terrain cost"? ie ignore terrain cost just negates it anyway? just speculating, need more info

re: OP suggestion, all of that can be accomplished via modmod. I have left somewhat of a template available for anyone that wants to re-distribute/rebalance recon promos (and then some) in the mods repository subforum under the name "recon terrain specialization". My attempts went further than OP, but most of the "work" required to implement what's outlined here would just be deleting the unneeded parts and changing values, might save a bit of time over building the sql/xml from ground up...

 

[Rekk]

I think half speed in enemy territory is a little excessive. I'd make a more targeted change: They only ignore ZoC in neutral or friendly territory. That's the part that makes them impossible to defend against or pin down. Scouts running around the outskirts providing vision is not problematic. It's what they should be doing. No need to nerf that. It's that they can run in past your units to cause some havok and then run past them again to escape with nothing you can do to stop them. That's the only part that needs to be checked, and getting rid of ignore ZoC will take care of that.

Possibly also have a later tech that re-enables ignoring ZoC in enemy territory, or a tech-locked promo that lets them do it.

Ignore ZoC itself is on a promotion.

 

[rkkn]

Ignore ZoC itself is on a promotion.

yes, I am suggesting that the promotion be changed to have that aspect not work in enemy territory

 

[myclan]

I will clarify my point:
1. I suppose Recon Units are with special equipment, so they can go across the desert/ forest/river much easier, unlike other units would be trapped (so 2 movement cost). So Recon Units are born with Ignore Terrain Cost Trait. But it's just a bit odd when combined with Double Movement Promotion. Why are they even faster than Flat Plain/Grass？

2.Survivalism could be important to explore lands with more Barbarian. But Double Movement+Ignore ZOC are strong enough to escape and survive. Survivalism becomes less priority.

3. Just imagine a newly-built enemy city with 1 radius and a few 2 radius tiles. All the tiles are borderland so could be entered without going through enemy tiles. So limiting Recon Units ability in enemy lands don't solve the problem.

 

[azum4roll]

3. Just imagine a newly-built enemy city with 1 radius and a few 2 radius tiles. All the tiles are borderland so could be entered without going through enemy tiles. So limiting Recon Units ability in enemy lands don't solve the problem.

So you think you should be allowed to get away with it if you settle a new city right in front of your enemy and not protect it? What's stopping them to just take your city with Spearman then?

given current state of available promotion effects, imo we need to remove 'ignore terrain cost' and adjust other movement bonuses to achieve a desireable movement regime for recon

Sure, if you want to punish civs starting in hills/trees/desert.

 

[Tekamthi]

Sure, if you want to punish civs starting in hills/trees/desert.

we're spoiling movement for the unit line for the whole game just to even things up for a few turns at the beginning? Maybe pathfinders could be granted a terrain-based starting promo the way barbs are, from the area they start in

edit: could take it even further and give pathfinder ALL the barbarian "walker" promos... change those promos to "lostonupgrade" and the promo tree remains fully relevant to scout and beyond, and we can do away with "ignore terrain cost"

 

[pineappledan]

These proposals are going to make things worse…

 

[Anarcomu]

These proposals are going to make things worse…

Only if they pass

 

[myclan]

These proposals are going to make things worse…

So I would like to listen to your proposals which can make things better. Or clarify why mine are worse.

 

[pineappledan]

Disabling abilities based on tile ownership isn’t going to make these units fun and it’s going to break any utility they have past the exploration phase.

You claim that it’s a problem that they move faster in specific terrain than 5 move tanks, but it’s not. Just because you say something is so doesn’t make it true.

Survivalism isn’t as good as the TB line early, but works very well for mid and late game recon units. You’re only focused on the first 100 turns, to the detriment of other 400 turn. Even then I don’t agree with your premise, much less your conclusion.

 

[myclan]

Disabling abilities based on tile ownership isn’t going to make these units fun and it’s going to break any utility they have past the exploration phase.

I don’t agree with disabling abilities based on tiles ownership either, so that is not my suggestion.

You claim that it’s a problem that they move faster in specific terrain than 5 move tanks, but it’s not. Just because you say something is so doesn’t make it true.

A pathfinder with double movement in forest can go across 4 tiles of hills with forest in just 1 turn. Except helicopters or other units with special traits, can horse archers or any other units catch up with him?

 

[Rosete]

Does it matter? At best recon can tank 1-2 hits before they're forced to retreat. Occasionally you can snipe a worker, but can you escort said worker back home? No one is fielding mass army of recon. No war is won or lost because of recon. The unit is good at scouting and being a nuisance, I don't see the problem.

 

[pineappledan]

If you nerf scout line units you will just see this behaviour with skirmisher line units, who are too fast to be caught by other units in flat open terrain. It's intended that other players are able to harass your civilian units and infrastructure. You can escort them or keep them in cities, and just generally play better instead of demanding rule changes to enable sloppy defense.

The TB and survivalism lines are available to all players and I use both. These are base mechanics that all players have access to; It's a perfectly even playing field. It's also hard not to interpret this complaint about the fact that TB scouts can move quickly as a complaint that a unit you like to neglect has been used effectively against you.

Edit: A bit of an aside, if it weren't so frustrating I would be quite amused at how we have some voices calling for us to destroy the recon line's mobility, because it's useful in pvp, while we also have another vocal contingent of people who argue against using the recon line as substrate for anything, because they are, to loosely paraphrase, irredeemable garbage.

 

[Tekamthi]

"irredeemable garbage units"

while this is a little far, especially considering the ability of super scouts to snipe units from across the map, criticism of the recon line is somewhat appropriate -- even the duality of it is understandable, considering the wide disparity between a starting super scout and one built much later in the game. In base VP, if the starting recon unit is lost after most tiles are discovered, along with all its uber xp, what's the point of building another over the 5 other land units all competing for supply? (until paratrooper anyway)

On the other hand, that starting scout is so valuable, I imagine many play them the way I do (when unmodded anyway), keeping them safe and save scumming any errors that result in their accidental loss

I put another attempt to fix recon in the mod subforums -- some past ones I've shared have missed the mark tbh, but the latest are hitting close to target, without really changing all that much about recon's abilities; just when/how they're available. Not the OP suggestion, but my current prescription for fixing issues with the line, as identified in OP, is the following:

Recon Pay Terrain Cost
Counter-Reconnaissance
Exploration Heritage

 

[pineappledan]

If the disparity between the first “super scout” and all other scouts is too great, we could cap XP from exploration, or simply slow it down (ie more tiles needed to reveal for 1 XP).

There is no issue between TB and survivalism’s respective bonuses, however. The reality is that whatever line provides mobility will translate into more XP and more promotions overall, and that’s fine. Survivalism has lots of utility, even if it’s not the line you pick on your first 1-2 scouts. The proposal to move vision and movement earlier will exacerbate the disparity between itself and survivalism early game, not close the gap.

 

[Tekamthi]

If the disparity between the first “super scout” and all other scouts is too great, we could cap XP from exploration, or simply slow it down (ie more tiles needed to reveal for 1 XP).

Wrong direction imo, flattening the one truly unique aspect of this unit line. It would close the gap though, i'll give you that. I've handled this aspect in Exploration Heritage by allowing later-built recon to potentially reclaim lost exploration XP -- would prefer something like this in VP itself.

Anyway I am not a proponent of the OP's suggested solution necessarily, though I do believe the underlying concern is valid, and I like to see these ideas and discussions of recon -- much of my modding in this area arises from what is shared in these threads, and I think I'm getting close to a good but subtle fit for VP AI and humans alike based on this informal process.

Back on topic to the OP suggestion, its a bit of a nerf to the unit's strength, replacing all the TB bonuses, both movement and combat alike, with just movement/vision left in their place. They need some combat ability from these as well; perhaps not the current TB % bonus outside friendly, but something.

 

[azum4roll]

A pathfinder with double movement in forest can go across 4 tiles of hills with forest in just 1 turn. Except helicopters or other units with special traits, can horse archers or any other units catch up with him?

Does it matter if nothing catches up with recon units? They already don't fight well.